Open Passing?????

[Cholewa]

As a slow driver I grid at the back. Fast drivers in the front of the group need to realize that if they hit it from the get go, you'll be catching me on the 1st lap. I'm sorry but your 80% is my 100% plus you're getting a head start.

This is something that a lot of people need help understanding. You're not setting record times on your first lap. If you're the lead car, take it easy so you're not in traffic immediately. I see it all the time at TGPR. If you're the fast car in the group, go SLOW so all the cars bunch up behind you, then get on it on the last 20% of the track to start a good lap.

[JohnW8]

It's short session yo, I gotta go!!!!


People like to take off and hope to give themselves ample space behind them so they don't feel like they are holding anyone up. Unfortunately, they end up catching up to Charles.

We can try different scenarios at the next event. The group leader being a "pace" car (slow speed/no passing) til the last worker station then get to it up to the start line where the waving green is.

[rodhx]

At TGPR when on street tires I have had good success going hard on the out lap if I'm first off grid. The only cars I have then caught leaving grid were those that got there late anyway. I've done it for exactly the reason John said...keep the mirrors clear as long as possible without that "am I holding them up" feeling.

I guess I've just been lucky to not be in Charles' run group

[slowautoxr]

Speaking of holding folks up, I pointed folks by that actually did not want by. How do you signal if you're happy just following?

[rodhx]

Speaking of holding folks up, I pointed folks by that actually did not want by. How do you signal if you're happy just following?

Don't pass'em? Seriously though I usually try to wave off an unwanted point by...or at least try to. Gotta admit though if I pointed someone by and they waved it off I probably wouldn't notice until I realized they weren't trying go by.

[chuck schultz]

TT with passing requires a certain mindset. First, what do you care that you're holding someone up? This is no longer a track day. It's racing! Get used to enjoying their frustration in being able to catch you but unable to get around. It doesn't cost you anything to point them by, and it's their decision whether to move off line to make the pass. If they don't go for it, it's not your problem. If they do make an obvious move to pass, then it's still their problem, as well as becoming your problem to provide racing room. Again, it's not a track day, it's not your responsibility to slow down, but remember that the lap in which the pass happens will not be the fast lap for either car. Cooperate and then press on.

First lap out, you will not be on the clock until you cross the start/finish line. It's to your advantage to maximize your available traffic-free laps by going out slowly enough to bunch the pack behind you. (I think a full-course yellow would help, here.) Because grids are set by previous results, there will be almost no passing after the first session, unless a car or driver improves quite a bit (different tires, fewer mistakes, etc.) I've seen dozens of NASA time trial sessions at at least three different tracks, without a requirement for point-bys, and this method works well, even with as many as 60 or more cars on track.

[jatow]

Does Andy Tow post on this forum? Andy please pick up the Roast Beef phone and make your thoughts known.

Geez, take a few days off to fix the mess my clutch left when it "done blowed up" and look what I miss!!


I'm a bit torn on the subject: On the one hand, I'm comfortable with open passing in a "gentleman's passing" mindset but have concerns for novices, lower speed cars and those just uncomfortable with the idea of being passed anywhere other than a straight.

Note my reference to "Gentleman's passing". In my mind that's where you don't dive-bomb into a turn or make aggressive "race-type" passes. Remember, whether we are sharing a session with a bunch of Road Racer's using the session as a practice session or it's the standard TT crew, this is a Time Trials session and risky passes can't be tolerated. It's not a race session. Let me say again: it's not a race session.

FYI: my reply to Mark's initial post-event email:

Regardless of what passing rules we use I think the armband to prove driver's meeting should be the new norm. That way everyone knows the rules for that particular event on that particular day and "I didn't know" is not an issue.

I think a graduated approach might be good: Barber= 3 groups, open passing (with a warning on "aggressive race passing/dive-bombing), point-by and open wheel. Passing zones in the point-by group are discretionary based on track and Chief/Safety Steward.

This could be applied at TGPR/other tracks as well.

The disadvantage is an increased exposure to contact but we're already there based on observations from the last 2 Barbers RR/TT mix. Might as well embrace it.

My thoughts were/are that we are running 3 groups anyway (Large Fenders, Small Fenders, Open/Winged Things), we just change it to Open Passing, Point by, Open/Wings. Restrict fendered Novices to Point-by (open/wings guys are all crazy anyway, Novice or not...).

A word of caution: in a Time Trial mindset we are trying to lay down the best lap and drive the perfect line. An overtaking Road Racer may see our wide entry to a corner (late apex) as an opportunity even though we are "holding our line". This is a core difference in the RR vs. TT mindset and the biggest issue we have. We absolutely want (even need) the RR guys to join us in the Time Trials sessions, it's good for all involved, but they have to understand clearly: this is not a race session.

[rodhx]

A word of caution: in a Time Trial mindset we are trying to lay down the best lap and drive the perfect line. An overtaking Road Racer may see our wide entry to a corner (late apex) as an opportunity even though we are "holding our line". This is a core difference in the RR vs. TT mindset and the biggest issue we have. We absolutely want (even need) the RR guys to join us in the Time Trials sessions, it's good for all involved, but they have to understand clearly: this is not a race session.

Good point. Perhaps the "poster child" example is Barber turn 16. Some drivers go so wide and slow through there that even with the current passing rules it gets confusing as just what they are doing. Plus when they are that wide they lose sight of any trailing cars that might run a tighter line.

[87RX7RACER]

It would be a waste of time because you are the one who came in bickering.

Since when is offering up a point of view bickering? If no one ever expresses themselves about the good AND the bad things in our sport, how can we ever expect to make things better? The only mistake I made was I should have started a new topic instead of injecting it in this one and I get that.

[87RX7RACER]

One facet of this discussion needs to include corner workers. I think we need to try and explain to them the difference between a "safe" and "unsafe" pass is. I know that it's impossible for a safety steward to be able to watch all of the action, so it is important that we have good eyes everywhere to make sure people aren't getting too crazy on track.

Thoughts?

[farrout]

You have 2 facets regarding TT and corner workers to understand:

First is what we do at TGPR. We usually have virgin or inexperienced corner workers there. This is a good thing since it is an excellent place to start learning. They can learn in a low stress environment. For that very reason but mostly due to the track, we will never do open passing there.

Second is Barber or some other track where we have a concurrent road race that weekend. In the past 2 years we have talked to the corner workers about the TT passing rules (or at least the F&C Chair was supposed to). But it is something that they are not used to doing. They are used to an open passing environment where car-to-car contact is what they call in. Some late passes or corner passes are called in, some are not. This year we had FBF supply the F&C workers because we did not have enough SCCA workers register.

[rodhx]

Those are important distinctions for the F&C workers Craig. I would rather have enough workers to fully man the event ourselves, but one possible benefit of having the FBF workers for our mixed RR/TT Barber event is many of those folks are experienced working events where the passing rules vary by group.

[FVee90]

To throw another curveball into the discussion - apart from safety and corner workers - what do the entrants feel is the best for Barber? For years we have been fortunate to have entrants from the Carolinas to provide needed entry fees to make successful events. They promote a hillclimb very well and put on a great show - would they support open passing? AL and TVR do not have the numbers alone - it certainly looks better but the total number at the Barber event this year was far less than a year ago by a wide margin. Before we go with any particular decision should we not see what potential entrants from outside this area would gravitate too?

[farrout]

I posted the same discussion on the CCR website as well.

[JohnW8]

To throw another curveball into the discussion - apart from safety and corner workers - what do the entrants feel is the best for Barber? For years we have been fortunate to have entrants from the Carolinas to provide needed entry fees to make successful events. They promote a hillclimb very well and put on a great show - would they support open passing? AL and TVR do not have the numbers alone - it certainly looks better but the total number at the Barber event this year was far less than a year ago by a wide margin. Before we go with any particular decision should we not see what potential entrants from outside this area would gravitate too?

Absolutely. We are all in this together.