Open Passing?????

[JohnW8]

A valid question. IMHO - No. It still allows a prospective TT driver to gain his full TT license after the school. Otherwise it is 3 flat track events.

I go to tt school to get a tt license. I get a tt license in order to do hill climbs. I go to the hill climbs and see novices are allowed to enter. Why did I bother getting a license?

[rodhx]

Since we have gone to the new format in TT, I've not had a clean lap. I've had fast laps but not a clean lap that I can remember. There's always someone, in front or behind you for distraction.

Interesting...i have far fewer events of course but generally I have been successful at finding clean laps during a session. I tend to treat any lap I either pass or get passed as a slightly off pace lap to give tires & car a "rest" hoping to set up a flyer on following lap. During Sunday at Barber I pointed three slower cars by early in the session, held back some afterward, and was thrilled to get 4 or 5 clear laps before Tom caught me.

Maybe you just need to slow down some W8

[Ted E. Bayer]

I go to tt school to get a tt license. I get a tt license in order to do hill climbs. I go to the hill climbs and see novices are allowed to enter. Why did I bother getting a license?

Good question... we did not always let novices run hillclimbs. That is just last few years in SEDIV and in CCR, we let them run on a novice license IF they attend a classroom on Friday night before the hillclimb, take a drive up the hill with a mentor on Saturday morning and work with a mentor over the weekend.

I am working on two hillclimb sites (one of which is Chimney Rock. No open discussion or publicity please but, I have a tentative agreement to have a reunion next year - 20 year anniversary of last one in 95 - and work towards a possible hillclimb in 2016. The C. R. Park Manager came and watched the last Dragon Hillclimb and was very impressed with management, safety and family friendly "good for county travel & tourism" atmosphere. I hope to meet with her next week to talk more. Nothing definite but looking better I'd say.) BOTH of the new hillclimb sites are LEVEL 4 and I would not allow any novice licenses. There is also new discussions with new owners as of last week about returning to Eagle's Nest... and again, Level 4.

A Novice Driver is running on a novice license and should require more attention from stewards. If they need counseling or are having problems, they don't always ask for help. In events where they are mixed in with general population, they would have to adapt to changes in passing rules, ready or not. I am not totally against the idea of changing passing... but our drivers are the people we serve and they vote with entries. I think Barber low attendance was partially due to passing that occurred at last year's Barber (ask Ghia driver Ron Richey's opinion.) Good discussion ... we need to continue with new ideas and improvements for the program. Thanks all!

[87RX7RACER]

For what it's worth, I believe we should have passing with point by's regardless of where you are on track. You let the two driver's figure it out on track instead of having to keep up with imaginary passing lines. If it becomes a problem (jackassery or stupidity) then that's why we have stewards. Passing zones are just something else for the driver to have to think about and; as others have alluded, there is already enough stuff for them to consider while attempting to drive on the limit.

As for Time Trial Level's I think there should just be two. Novices and everyone else. If we don't make this sport more accessible then it will die out, IMO. The SCCA has done a terrible job at this and it's something that needs to change SOON.

I've already said this to Craig privately in my e-mail response, but I wanted to include my thoughts about the Labor Day race publicly for everyone's consideration as well.

"Overall I think things went well, but I will say that a few of us TT drivers left with a bad taste in our mouth. I believe that if we are going to go forward with “joint” road race and time trial events, the treatment needs to be EQUAL in regards to time on track. I did the math, and I basically paid 175 bucks for 15 minutes of track time. No matter how you slice it, it’s not acceptable-especially when you hear later that the track went cold around 3 PM on Sunday. That tells me that we had more than enough time for the second session that was on the schedule.

It’s pretty simple, the attitude that the road racer is somehow more important than the TT guy has got to go, IMO."

I'm sure I've said too much, but it needed to be said.

[JohnW8]

As for Time Trial Level's I think there should just be two. Novices and everyone else. If we don't make this sport more accessible then it will die out, IMO. The SCCA has done a terrible job at this and it's something that needs to change SOON.

"Overall I think things went well, but I will say that a few of us TT drivers left with a bad taste in our mouth. I believe that if we are going to go forward with “joint” road race and time trial events, the treatment needs to be EQUAL in regards to time on track. I did the math, and I basically paid 175 bucks for 15 minutes of track time. No matter how you slice it, it’s not acceptable-especially when you hear later that the track went cold around 3 PM on Sunday. That tells me that we had more than enough time for the second session that was on the schedule.

It’s pretty simple, the attitude that the road racer is somehow more important than the TT guy has got to go, IMO."

We are the SCCA, If we want things to change we have to make the effort to change them. I agree that things need to be more accessible and we need to find way to make each drivers track experience something they want to continue to do. Maybe open passing is good but then again maybe that's what kept the TT number low at Barber. SOme people like to drive their cars in a contact minimized environment, but we don't have the resources to get every individual their own run group. We have to share and we need to find a way to make everyone happy, maybe not ecstatic, but happy.

It sucks that the weather came in and screwed up the schedule. Up to that point the division of time for sessions was very equitable. We can't control the weather but we can have awesome 20/20 hindsight. Racing a car is not economical and is somewhat of a gamble. Sometimes you get all your sessions and at times your get hosed due to the weather, wrecked cars or black flags. If you're counting the dollars per minute, stop doing that, you will never like the results. Never total up the cost. It's bad. Really bad.

[farrout]

As for Time Trial Level's I think there should just be two. Novices and everyone else. If we don't make this sport more accessible then it will die out, IMO. The SCCA has done a terrible job at this and it's something that needs to change SOON.

Sorry but I do not understand this comment. With a TT license, there are only 2 levels - Novice and Full. There are 4 levels of events but only 2 - Track and HC require a TT license. PDX is actually the most popular TT event nationwide.

[farrout]

"Overall I think things went well, but I will say that a few of us TT drivers left with a bad taste in our mouth. I believe that if we are going to go forward with “joint” road race and time trial events, the treatment needs to be EQUAL in regards to time on track. I did the math, and I basically paid 175 bucks for 15 minutes of track time. No matter how you slice it, it’s not acceptable-especially when you hear later that the track went cold around 3 PM on Sunday. That tells me that we had more than enough time for the second session that was on the schedule.

It’s pretty simple, the attitude that the road racer is somehow more important than the TT guy has got to go, IMO."

We were hit hard by the weather on Saturday which necessitated adjusting the schedule on Sunday. Road Race qual time was cut in half on Sunday to 10 mins. Race Qual had also been reduced on Saturday to make up for the late start and all the time we lost due to pulling cars off track. Second TT session was deleted. When you experience the tremendous drop off of TT drivers in the afternoon TT session, then cutting that one had the overall least impact. Yes, it did impact the few TT drivers who would have run. We did have a flawless day on Sunday and finished ahead of schedule -- which is highly unusual . When we drew up the Sunday Schedule and published it, there was no room for 3 sessions of TT on Sunday. It seemed unfair to attempt to slide in one TT session and leave the rest out.

Losing track time due to wrecks, mechanical difficulties, pulling cars off track, and weather is a fact of life. As a driver, I accept that it does happen and is totally out of my control. As the Race Chair, I was constantly adjusting plans and working with the Track for extra time on Saturday in case we could get past the weather and get back on track that day. Sadly, it did not work out. In 2014, both RR and TT lost time due to circumstances beyond anyone's control.

Is the Road Racer more important than the TTer? I can argue both sides of that topic. When there are 100 Road Racers and 35 TTers, one might think that might tip the scales in one direction. When I made up the schedule in 2013 and 2014, I gave the TT sessions as much time as I could, certainly more than they got at RA. In 2014, I increased the TT time on Sat. First was to make the one day TT option more advantageous (53% of the TT entries were one day in 2013 and 2014) and the second was in recognition of the fact that a lot of TTers leave at noon on Sunday and skip the last TT session. We do have certain time/length requirements that the SARRC races have to have.

"the attitude that the road racer is somehow more important than the TT guy has got to go" Frankly, I have to challenge that statement and also say that it is not true to me. I have, however, had to argue the balancing of TT and RR with one senior official and would not change the TT schedule as he wanted.

Adding TT to a SARRC weekend at Barber is multi-faceted and not simple to do. First thought is that we would never have a TT at Barber if we did not combine it with a road race. Second thought is that most of the previous (before 2013) SARRC/ECR Barber races failed financially and adding TT to the event was the main way of making it feasible to do Barber at all. Doing a TT with a Road Race is a constant juggle - both RR and TT make compromises in order to fit it all in.

Hind sight is 20/20. All it is good for is to assist us in planning for 2015 Barber.

[rodhx]

Regarding the 2014 scheduling challenges, I thought the stewards did a very good job handling the changing conditions. I would have liked to have gotten both Sunday TT sessions, but I also recognize some racers got a total of 10-15 minutes on track on Saturday when their actual races were postponed. My impression was that, at the end of the weekend, the RR/TT time-on-track difference was basically what it would have been under the original schedule and understandable given the difference in fees paid by the groups.

I balance the loss of a TT session on Sunday with the fact we got all three Saturday sessions even though cars didn't make it on track until ~8:35am. To be honest I was surprised that we still got two morning sessions after that delay. I was fully expecting the remainder of the 1.5 hours of Sat morning TT to be divvied up in three sessions so the race qualifying sessions could stay on time.

Check your math Vince ... the difference in cost from 1 day TT to 2 day TT was $125 so that's what we paid for 15 minutes of time. Hey...every little bit helps, right?

[87RX7RACER]

Sorry but I do not understand this comment. With a TT license, there are only 2 levels - Novice and Full. There are 4 levels of events but only 2 - Track and HC require a TT license. PDX is actually the most popular TT event nationwide.

I am referring to the different "levels" of events. So correction, three levels...novice, full, and PDX. You are correct in that only two levels require a license, but seeing as that novices can now run hill climb events I don't see the point of the "Level 4" title. It just adds confusion among new drivers.

[87RX7RACER]

We were hit hard by the weather on Saturday which necessitated adjusting the schedule on Sunday.

I totally understand the need to change the schedule based on weather and on track incidents, I just believe there is a big difference between dropping sessions altogether and adjusting the time length of those sessions in order to fit things in. Additionally, using the excuse that most people leave on Sunday isn't right-IMO. If you always assume that people leave and use this as a basis for justifying dropping a session, what kind of impression does this leave for new comers in the sport?

"the attitude that the road racer is somehow more important than the TT guy has got to go" Frankly, I have to challenge that statement and also say that it is not true to me. I have, however, had to argue the balancing of TT and RR with one senior official and would not change the TT schedule as he wanted.

While it may not be true to you (and I believe this) there are others in the division who feel very different about this. It is my understanding that Creighton has already stated that he would not approve a road race sanction that had a time trial format in it for 2015. While I am sure that this is just posturing, this is what I mean by attitudes...

Second thought is that most of the previous (before 2013) SARRC/ECR Barber races failed financially and adding TT to the event was the main way of making it feasible to do Barber at all. Doing a TT with a Road Race is a constant juggle - both RR and TT make compromises in order to fit it all in.

Your second thought is simply not true. While we had up and down years leading up to 2013, we had mostly broke even for the 5 years prior (even with a Saturday social) and I don't consider that a failure. The BoD didn't either, which is why we voted to continue doing this event.

While both groups have to make compromises, the RR guys were asked to make less of them that weekend. And whether or not you want to justify that by car count or whatever that's fine, but I believe that many of the TT drivers will be road racing in the future. So in my opinion, it is important to be as fair as possible to BOTH groups during joint events. Otherwise you leave a bad impression, which results in people spending their racing dollars elsewhere.

[FVee90]

Vincent and others - I respect your opinions but the info that we got was that in previous years the social $$ numbers made the already close to break even below that. Personal definitions often come into play between successful and failure - for any region to conduct any event it must have some positive gains or risk the other series (Solo and/or Rallycross) that are making money to get upset they are donating to a series that is losing money. It is always a difficult balance - we had a great year last year and barely lost money this year on Barber so the tweaks to 2015 look to get us back on track.
Creighton is a SARRC guy and I'm not really sure you understand that he is backing his stance on SARRC time because he is getting blasted by SARRC racers wanting their time on track. A heat of the moment argument between two people postering time is not to be considered what will happen to 2015. If we get rain with no lightening or the storm shifts a few miles we probably are not even discussing this but I wouldn't let this blip make a statement.
Let me poster something
1. Do you go to any other regions TT or hillclimbs? Atlanta Region will not conduct a TT L3 at RA basically because of low turnout so flat tracks are now down to Barber, TGPR, RRoad (which we may lose) and CMP (1 day).
2. Do you encourage other possible entrants by email, phone call, or posting on other forums?
3. Do you thank the entrants who come from out-of-town personally?
4. Do you work other regions events to thank them for coming out of their region to work ours (in this case Atlanta Region)
5. Have you stepped up and taken on a speciality license (Sound, Scrutineer, F&C, Starter, etc)

These and many more help establish that both regions can substain this as someplace people will want to come and race at.
What you may not be aware of is that an incident on Sunday between two formula cars could have been something that would have taken a lot longer on Sunday to clear with the possibility of a badly injured driver. A few more inches of a left front Hoosier tire on the helmet of the driver of the other car could have meant a long time to remove the driver of the car. Event organizers juggle a lot of problems to conduct something for your enjoyment and the first thought is not to F U

[JohnW8]

I am referring to the different "levels" of events. So correction, three levels...novice, full, and PDX. You are correct in that only two levels require a license, but seeing as that novices can now run hill climb events I don't see the point of the "Level 4" title. It just adds confusion among new drivers.

If this is the confusing part to you, you're not going to like the GCR at all.

Easy peasy:
Level 1: PDX-- No License Required
Level 2: Club Trials-- No license Required
Level 3: Track Trials-- No Full License Required
Level 4: Hillclimb-- Full License Required

Regarding the past events, the budgets I saw on a few of the previous events showed big losses, hence the profitability after deleting the Roast beef and Stella Artrois.

I think the Road Racers might say that sharing the track with Time Trialers was a compromise and that the TT drivers had more sessions on Saturday was a compromise. Had the storm been a wash out for the weekend the TT guys would definitely had the on track advantage. We are all in this together we all have to make compromises in order to build a program. That includes both TT and RR drivers as well as race officials and workers. We are not customers of the SCCA, we are the SCCA. We work together.

Craig did a fantastic job of juggling to make this work.

[87RX7RACER]

Vincent and others - I respect your opinions but the info that we got was that in previous years the social $$ numbers made the already close to break even below that.

I still have the spreadsheets from those years as I used to be one of the Race Chairs for this event, and the numbers aren't opinions. Even with the social, we were pretty much even money since the first Labor Day race when we started the alliance with the TVR Region in 2013. To my knowledge, we have never had to sacrifice in another area in order to put on this event.

Creighton is a SARRC guy and I'm not really sure you understand that he is backing his stance on SARRC time because he is getting blasted by SARRC racers wanting their time on track. A heat of the moment argument between two people postering time is not to be considered what will happen to 2015.

It's my understanding that he is the chief over the SARRC, so how can you definitively say what will or will not happen in 2015 in regards to combined TT and RR events?


1. Do you go to any other regions TT or hillclimbs? Atlanta Region will not conduct a TT L3 at RA basically because of low turnout so flat tracks are now down to Barber, TGPR, RRoad (which we may lose) and CMP (1 day). Since Barber was my first event, I have yet to have an opportunity to attend another Region's event
2. Do you encourage other possible entrants by email, phone call, or posting on other forums? Yes, I have encouraged multiple racers to come out to an event and actively reach out to people whenever I can
3. Do you thank the entrants who come from out-of-town personally?Yes
4. Do you work other regions events to thank them for coming out of their region to work ours (in this case Atlanta Region)No, but even if I did how would I know who comes and works our events verses who doesn't?
5. Have you stepped up and taken on a speciality license (Sound, Scrutineer, F&C, Starter, etc) I may not have a specialty license, but I have done more for this sport than just about anyone in the Region

Event organizers juggle a lot of problems to conduct something for your enjoyment and the first thought is not to F U

Do you seriously want to go there Mark? I have a lot of respect for you because I know you have done a lot of great things for the SCCA, but I've got to draw the line here. I used to be intimately involved in this event for many years, so I know what the organizers are going through. As a former race chairman have been in the tower and helped make those very same decisions that you speak of on multiple occasions-without a specialty license. The only reason why I chose to step down from this position is because people from YOUR Region no longer wanted to work with me for the event. So remember THAT the next time you question my level of involvement in the TT and RR program...

End rant.

[farrout]

I am referring to the different "levels" of events. So correction, three levels...novice, full, and PDX. You are correct in that only two levels require a license, but seeing as that novices can now run hill climb events I don't see the point of the "Level 4" title. It just adds confusion among new drivers.

Time to get the facts straight. In SCCA Time Trials, there are 4 levels of events which are distinguishable from each other.

Level 1 - PDX
Level 2 - Club Trials
Level 3 - Track Trials
Level 4 - Hill Climbs

Each of the performance levels have different characteristics and thus warrant separation from the others. Yes there are similarities between them all but not enough to combine them.

Levels 1 and 2 do not require a TT license or a road race license
Levels 3 and 4 do require a TT license (Novice or full) or a road race license from some racing entity.

[farrout]

[QUOTE=JohnW8;42275]If this is the confusing part to you, you're not going to like the GCR at all.

Easy peasy:
Level 1: PDX-- No License Required
Level 2: Club Trials-- No license Required
Level 3: Track Trials-- No Full License Required
Level 4: Hillclimb-- Full License Required
QUOTE]

JOhn - Some HC allow a TT Novice license. We have established a SEDIV TT Novice program for HC. It is up to the Region putting on the event to decide what is safe for them to do. For example, the Road Atlanta Level 3 events required a full TT license and would not allow TT Novice permits.