Open Passing?????

[farrout]

For TGPR, I have the 3 tin top groups factored by expected lap times. Some of the placements are governed by the 2 driver cars and also the TT drivers who are also PDX Instructors.

We also did not set up Registration with a question about who wants open passing on the straights.

At this time, I do not see the value in making these changes. We could take the 2 groups who are non-student and ask if they want to do No Point By passing. Maybe a Saturday lunch time discussion with a Driver's meeting???? if the drivers are interested.

[JohnW8]

At TGPR I prefer "point by passing" since there are novices mixed in the groups and the track isn't really suited for open passing (short straights mean overtaking drivers of lower HP cars need some help on pass completion from the overtaken driver). The thread started way back when, to open up passing at Barber for the combined RR/TT sessions and at tracks that could accommodate open passing.

[zukitek]

I sent this as a reply to the question via email but will echo it here. I frequently run with other clubs that offer differant levels of passing . Chin has green for novices which is identical in passing rules as our current flat track TT passing rules . Then they have blue which is still point by but anywhere on the lap and finally red is also like blue but there is a high expectation that the point come soon enough that the faster car never has to lift and the passee determines the side he is passed on . All of these groups require cooperation among the drivers but the main thing is that they require a point . This way both drivers are absolutely in the loop. I believe that the point is important to keep at this level...there is no reason to induce the risk of M2M in this group by making it open passing .

I am a huge fan of anywhere passing but I feel the point needs to be kept and needs to be adhered to because of the varying level of experience and resolve that we have in our program.

[zukitek]

as for the calls to grid...its simple . You (admin) stick with the schedule no matter what and whoever is in grid goes on track when grid releases...if your not there then you blend in whenever you show to grid . No need to browbeat everyone over the PA. We are all grownups.

[e30Racer]

I sent this as a reply to the question via email but will echo it here. I frequently run with other clubs that offer differant levels of passing . Chin has green for novices which is identical in passing rules as our current flat track TT passing rules . Then they have blue which is still point by but anywhere on the lap and finally red is also like blue but there is a high expectation that the point come soon enough that the faster car never has to lift and the passee determines the side he is passed on . All of these groups require cooperation among the drivers but the main thing is that they require a point . This way both drivers are absolutely in the loop. I believe that the point is important to keep at this level...there is no reason to induce the risk of M2M in this group by making it open passing .

I am a huge fan of anywhere passing but I feel the point needs to be kept and needs to be adhered to because of the varying level of experience and resolve that we have in our program.

I totally agree Ricky. I have said that I personally wouldn't pass anyone without a point by bc I am not going to assume that they see me and when I make a move, I was wrong and they turn in on me or make a move I wasn't expecting. With a point by, I know they see me and I know they are expecting me to pass them. This provides the opportunity for more passing but keeps the level of contact at the same minimum it is currently with point bys.

[Cholewa]

as for the calls to grid...its simple . You (admin) stick with the schedule no matter what and whoever is in grid goes on track when grid releases...if your not there then you blend in whenever you show to grid . No need to browbeat everyone over the PA. We are all grownups.

Calls to grid are just a formality. 15 minute timed sessions. First call at 10 minutes remaining, second call at 5 remaining, last call at 2. Once all cars are behind the wall grid is on track and we're green.


What ends up being the issue with people not reporting to grid at the 5 minute mark is that the grid chief can't line everyone up based on times, so the grouping gets messed up and everyone has lots of dirty laps because there's no order.

The only people who have an actual reason to wait to go to grid, are the formula guys, because they are mostly air cooled and can't just sit around and idle for 5-6 minutes.


And, if there's no cars in grid as the checker is thrown, the time for the next group is starting regardless of whether or not there are cars on course, because there is a schedule that needs to be adhered to. Think of the calls as a courtesy by whoever is announcing/keeping time to let you know how to get your money's worth out of the day.


I haven't been control/announcer/timekeeper in a while, but that's how I did it and why. Things move a lot faster when you're in the control tower vs on the ground waiting for 3 more groups to run. I also always assume nobody is paying attention to who is on course so giving the 10 minute and 5 minute warning feels nice.

[farrout]

Unlike a lot of TT events, at TGPR we provide each driver with a copy of the run group assignments and the precise schedule that we are attempting to follow. They can use that information to know where and when they need to be on grid.

The Chief Steward works to keep the start times of each session working to the schedule.

[chuck schultz]

For clarification Chuck...define "late" please. I assume arriving late means arriving after the grid has been released?

Too late to assume their proper grid spot before the grid is released.

[chuck schultz]

stick with the schedule no matter what

This is a fine policy as long as you're in the tower and I'm not. It can't happen at TGPR for our events for many reasons.

[rodhx]

Calls to grid are just a formality. 15 minute timed sessions. First call at 10 minutes remaining, second call at 5 remaining, last call at 2. Once all cars are behind the wall grid is on track and we're green.


What ends up being the issue with people not reporting to grid at the 5 minute mark is that the grid chief can't line everyone up based on times, so the grouping gets messed up and everyone has lots of dirty laps because there's no order.

The only people who have an actual reason to wait to go to grid, are the formula guys, because they are mostly air cooled and can't just sit around and idle for 5-6 minutes.


And, if there's no cars in grid as the checker is thrown, the time for the next group is starting regardless of whether or not there are cars on course, because there is a schedule that needs to be adhered to. Think of the calls as a courtesy by whoever is announcing/keeping time to let you know how to get your money's worth out of the day.


I haven't been control/announcer/timekeeper in a while, but that's how I did it and why. Things move a lot faster when you're in the control tower vs on the ground waiting for 3 more groups to run. I also always assume nobody is paying attention to who is on course so giving the 10 minute and 5 minute warning feels nice.

Michael.. I agree with most of what you said (no one wants to sit in grid longer than absolutely necessary in any heat at all when fully suited...not just formula guys) and three calls to grid as described is great. I know I appreciate the reminders. It's when there seems to be a call to grid every minute starting as soon as the group ahead was released that it gets a bit much. However, I'd rather be badgered via PA than get no reminders at all.

[JohnW8]

Maybe if someone said "Boogity Boogity Boogity" at the beginning of each session we would know we had 10 minutes to get to grid.

I appreciate the calls to grid but at times they can't be heard over some of the more robust cackling of a rotary or formula car.

Grid can set up the run group with what they have in front of them. Leave the spot empty if no one shows up. No one should be "punished" if they show up late. That's their problem and their loss of track time.

[farrout]

We all know that schedules are fluid for a varying number of reasons. The intent with a tight schedule is to get the first car on track at the scheduled time. TGPR is easy to view and we can start cars on track when the last car is on the old skid pad.

I also think we all know that by looking at which run group is on track, we can figure out that our group is next to go. We also know that the session (look at the detailed schedule) is supposed to be xx minutes long. Therefore we have a reasonable expectation that the next session will go on track at a specific time and we should be in grid 5 minutes before that.

The PA announcements are quite helpful if nothing else than the noise can be discerned. It alerts you to the fact that something is happening. If you have already figured out that your run group is next, then it is easy.

We could run a draconian set-up like NASA. The schedule is gospel and if you are not there you miss out on the session.

[Cholewa]

It's never a big deal if every single car gets to grid on time. It's just nice to have everyone there with a few minutes to spare to keep up with the schedule.

TGPR though, is one of those tracks/weekends where we can be almost certain that sunday will have combined groups and in general more track time than most can handle, so running a bit behind one day isn't a huge deal. I think everyone get's more than enough bang for the buck compared to other tracks (i'm just guessing here since I haven't been to other tracks) and are allowed a much more relaxed environment.

If only there was a dome over the paddock so everyone could hear the announcements...

[chuck schultz]

My comments about people late to grid were mainly based on what I saw at BMP. It appeared that some of the racers were not timely reporting to grid, which put them out of their proper grid positions. Then they sometimes created unnecessary turbulence in traffic, creating lost laps for the folks who were competing for points.

Looking to the GCR for relief from this problem, I see that the Steward can decide to hold late arrivals at pit out until the field passes start/finish the first time ("after the race has started.") This would give everybody at least one clear lap before being impacted by traffic from the offenders. See below for relevant citation.

6.5.6. Late Starters
After the field has left the grid, the Series Chief Steward or Chief Steward
may release cars that were not in position at the 1 minute warning to join
the back of the pack either from the grid at the beginning of the pace lap
or from the pit exit after the race has been started.