Are these legal?

[Chuck Baader]

It is up to the competitor to enforce the rules...we are all competitors so it is incumbent 0n all of us to insure the rules are upheld.

[kilgojr]

All right guys and gals. Its time to cool off your panties!! What W8 has brought up here has valid points. And yes, there are rules that are a constant bone of contention and of discussion in forums all over the SCCA interwebz.

First of all, I don't think that we want to bombard new comers with our end all be all rulebook. If there is anything that will turn off a newcomer it is a bunch of people telling them that their car needs to be in this class or that class because they have this or that item on their car. SCCA National, in all its wisdom, makes things difficult at the best of times. However, they have one thing that is absolutely right. Make it simple, Make it fun. You have to keep this in mind. I have heard time and time again from people that they didn't feel welcome at an event because some "expert of the event" told them that if they want to take part in this in the future they need to look at changing their car to comply with the rules. Most people that come to local events (90%) are never going to go to a neighboring region for an event, neither are they going to be at a national event. So yeah, rules are rules are rules. But we have to keep in mind that we have to welcome people in to our group. I personally don't know of anyone that has continued in our region, desired to be competitive, and not known that at some point they would be subject to the ruleset that we are all talking about.

So yes, we have to be mindful of the ruleset, but we also have to make things locally very simple. If someone has a car that is not necessarily legal, but is running at events locally, then they are bringing in money to our club, and potentially other friends.

Don't let the classes and rules ruin the fun that we have locally. If someone genuinely desires to run nationally or even "divisionally" at events around the south, they will know to follow the rules. We ALL know this, so please, keep the "rule police" talk to a level that doesn't continue the stereotype of SCCA, THE GRUMPY OLD MAN'S CLUB.

[rodhx]

It's one thing to "bombard new comers", but it is something else entirely when it is a regular attender that knows better. Especially when even more regular attenders stand to get cheated because they are legally running in the class the "cheater" is claiming. I know that's what the protest process is for, but it shouldn't have to come to that.

Anyway, I'll try again at the next event if he's there. Jerry knows of whom I speak so I'm sure he'll give it a shot again too

[jbass1911]

But that requires someone else to verify classing. It's up to the driver to class the car, and the other competitors can contest if they wish.

This. If someone feels they are being cheated, they should protest. If said "cheater" is constantly reminded by everyone but the competitors in his class they may feel uncomfortable and not come back.

[TouringBubble]

Also, I'm not certain that you are limited to only contesting drivers in your own class. Can a driver contest an illegal mod in another class for the sake of the rest of the competitors?

[c-evoVIII]

From 2013 Solo Rulebook (www.scca.com)






Also...

3.5 MUFFLERS
Adequate mufflers are required for Solo® events. The criterion of “adequacy”
is not what the exhaust system consists of, but the sound level.
Any car deemed by the Event Chairman or his designated representative
to be excessively loud shall not compete without acceptable modifications
installed on the car.

Doesn't have to be a sound meter. Let's please be proactive and not upset the neighbors.

copy that kind sir. C

[claym]

copy that kind sir. C

I can actually only think of 2-4 cars that this would affect , and they are all Hondas and planetary cars. And they should be able to be quieter with proper exhaust systems. We do not have strictly enforced sound, but we run near neighborhoods that may have people sleeping after working all night or they may not appreciate the sound of "thunder" from cars during their day of rest. And all it takes is a complaint to a city council member to start the process of a site demise.

Please be pro-active with controlling excessive decibels at our events (and other event sites as well).

[Chuck Baader]

Matt, in club racing, any club member can protest. Don't know about Solo.

[JohnW8]

Hi! Grumpy Old SCCA guy here... I don't want our massive rulebook to ruin anyones fun, and I give a pass to newcomers because I know how important new blood is to our club. IF a newcomer asks me my opinion about car classing and rules I will tell them what those rules are if I know them. People who are regulars that disregard class rules need to be reminded that this a club that tries to promote fair competition. Class competitors should be doing it but if they weren't made aware of the rules as a beginner, how are they going to use them as a regular competitor. What's that saying,... "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse."

My point in this discussion was to find out why people in our club who build a car to a certain class (XYZ) with set rules (SOLO Rule Book) would ask if only one particular part would be illegal. What do the rules say? We as drivers need to decide what we want to do with AutoX and either build a car to the class or build a car and find a class. SCCA works with either.

I agree on the sound control of a few. We need to make some friendly suggestions about muffling.

Good discussion people!

[mpcavana]

Josh and I were at the Wilmington Tour. We saw a car in another class that we knew the rules for and were interested so we talked with the owner in impound. We asked some questions and since we had common ground he also explained what he had done with the car. He said that he had upgraded the diff because it was offered in other models that year but had not done anything else to change the trim level to where the diff was offered. When we explained it was all or nothing he expressed ignorance but I suspect he was hedging. Since this is for money and a National event that sucked. If we cross paths again I plan to tell his competitors that there could be cause for closer inspection.

So lame to cheat when the sport is for fun!

[spray004]

So lame to cheat when the sport is for fun!

As long as there is competition involved, there will be cheating.

[HPEVOX]

Yeah I could think of a Honda or two that are too loud. Not real sure it helps the power any either. And that is the make of the car that I know isn't classed correctly.

[rlcsolo2]

This. If someone feels they are being cheated, they should protest. If said "cheater" is constantly reminded by everyone but the competitors in his class they may feel uncomfortable and not come back.

Got a good example for you...my old '89 Mustang. Had a retread fly up on the highway and destroy the right blinker. Just so happened that there was a hole that was directly in front of the air box. running in F Stock at the time, I had a guy with a newer Z28 protest me for running "ram air". He formally protested me to Chris (drawing a blank, Solo chair before John Redd) and he told the guy to dismiss it in a more dramatic way. I simply couldn't afford a new housing for it at the time and lord knows I didn't see a performance gain from it considering I was already lighting up the rears the entire course already, but that guy never came back. Hope he isn't still following the forums, but he was crap anyway, but nonetheless, the reaction to his protest was enough to make him forget SCCA altogether and probably go back to drag racing. I fixed the light eventually to avoid a moving violation, but when I upgraded the suspension and read that spherical bearing in the control arms bumped me from ESP to SM, I changed classes before anyone ever said anything. That WAS a real performance modification and despite running basically a Ford Fairmont Fox body chassis against EVO's and STI's at the time and feeling like I was almost justified in having the 2 spherical bearings and pretending it was legal in comparison, I changed to Street Mod immediately because I didn't want any hollow wins or be scared that somebody at any given event could say it was because of those illegal control arms. It's sportsmanship. Period. If you can sleep at night knowing that you are cheating and got a trophy, then locally, that's on your conscience. But you know you you're not a winner. And if you feel you are good enough to go to a National event and actually compete, then you have a rude awakening in your future and should try to legitimately beat your peers locally without justifying modifications and/or out-right cheating. There's a fine line between competition and playing. And anyone enjoying hollow victories due to illegal modifications at the expense of guys really trying and potentially giving up our beautiful sport as they follow the rules should be ashamed. Granted, you can't expect to win right off the bat, but when you know for a fact you're getting beat by someone who conveniently doesn't class-up due to mods and nobody steps up and says something, that's demoralizing and will make you decide to quit. It's sportsmanship. If you're cheating, be a man and change classes, pay your dues, take your licks and become a better driver. Or change cars like I did and get away from seasoned classes with the big hitters like CSP, SS, STX, SM, etc. that have sorted their cars and spent some years, cash, blood, sweat and tears. Unless you are alright with knowing that one day you might be able to drive as well as they can WITHOUT bending the rules, stay there and be proud.
Mark McWilliams is a perfect example. He ran CSP in a car that his dad ran CS at the same events and was a threat on any given Sunday. Once he got a real suspension and tires, he came out of nowhere. I never realized he was running stock suspension all of those years until he got some real equipment. Unfortunately, he didn't get to run every event the season he finally upgraded, but I guarantee that it would have gone down to the wire because he was a threat without the suspension with talent and practice alone. He never complained, never made excuses. He just congratulated the winner and continued to improve. That's the kind of sportsmanship and spirit of the rules to which we all should aspire!!!
Long post. Sorry. Sore subject because I don't understand how anyone could see it any differently.

[JohnW8]

Got a good example for you...my old '89 Mustang. Had a retread fly up on the highway and destroy the right blinker. Just so happened that there was a hole that was directly in front of the air box. running in F Stock at the time, I had a guy with a newer Z28 protest me for running "ram air". He formally protested me to Chris (drawing a blank, Solo chair before John Redd) and he told the guy to dismiss it in a more dramatic way. I simply couldn't afford a new housing for it at the time and lord knows I didn't see a performance gain from it considering I was already lighting up the rears the entire course already, but that guy never came back. Hope he isn't still following the forums, but he was crap anyway, but nonetheless, the reaction to his protest was enough to make him forget SCCA altogether and probably go back to drag racing. I fixed the light eventually to avoid a moving violation, but when I upgraded the suspension and read that spherical bearing in the control arms bumped me from ESP to SM, I changed classes before anyone ever said anything. That WAS a real performance modification and despite running basically a Ford Fairmont Fox body chassis against EVO's and STI's at the time and feeling like I was almost justified in having the 2 spherical bearings and pretending it was legal in comparison, I changed to Street Mod immediately because I didn't want any hollow wins or be scared that somebody at any given event could say it was because of those illegal control arms. It's sportsmanship. Period. If you can sleep at night knowing that you are cheating and got a trophy, then locally, that's on your conscience. But you know you you're not a winner. And if you feel you are good enough to go to a National event and actually compete, then you have a rude awakening in your future and should try to legitimately beat your peers locally without justifying modifications and/or out-right cheating. There's a fine line between competition and playing. And anyone enjoying hollow victories due to illegal modifications at the expense of guys really trying and potentially giving up our beautiful sport as they follow the rules should be ashamed. Granted, you can't expect to win right off the bat, but when you know for a fact you're getting beat by someone who conveniently doesn't class-up due to mods and nobody steps up and says something, that's demoralizing and will make you decide to quit. It's sportsmanship. If you're cheating, be a man and change classes, pay your dues, take your licks and become a better driver. Or change cars like I did and get away from seasoned classes with the big hitters like CSP, SS, STX, SM, etc. that have sorted their cars and spent some years, cash, blood, sweat and tears. Unless you are alright with knowing that one day you might be able to drive as well as they can WITHOUT bending the rules, stay there and be proud.
Mark McWilliams is a perfect example. He ran CSP in a car that his dad ran CS at the same events and was a threat on any given Sunday. Once he got a real suspension and tires, he came out of nowhere. I never realized he was running stock suspension all of those years until he got some real equipment. Unfortunately, he didn't get to run every event the season he finally upgraded, but I guarantee that it would have gone down to the wire because he was a threat without the suspension with talent and practice alone. He never complained, never made excuses. He just congratulated the winner and continued to improve. That's the kind of sportsmanship and spirit of the rules to which we all should aspire!!!
Long post. Sorry. Sore subject because I don't understand how anyone could see it any differently.

Well said.

[DerkMc]

Got a good example for you...my old '89 Mustang. Had a retread…..
Long post. Sorry. Sore subject because I don't understand how anyone could see it any differently.

First off, a little about me. I’m from the Huntsville region and the ‘TheSouth Vs The More South’ event was only my third event ever. So I’m new…real new. Lol Mods when I purchased my2003 Mustang Mach 1 (still using almost the exact same Ford Fairmont Fox Body chassis as the ’89) four months ago were 10.5 wide rims with 315 Sumitomo tires on the rear (stock size on the front) catback, tune, and rear lower control arms with spherical bearings.

It is kind of a little buzz kill being severely under prepared for any non-stock class, but having one mod that throws you into a class with cars that can be downright "because racecar" is extremely dishearteningThe aftermarket RLCAs put me in Prepared or Street Modified. One very common Mustang modification threw me into one of two highly modified classes. So I chose SM thinking (incorrectly) that is was a “slower” class than CP. I was destroyed by more than 10 seconds. I had a blast but it kind of sucked knowing that I wouldn’t be competitive for a long time...class or PAX wise. Some guys I knew said I should have just kept the RLCAs to myself and ran in ESP, which if I had I would have still finished dead last out of 5 other cars. My next event I ran CP because of the better PAX and there was one entrant besides myself, he got me by almost 4 seconds. But, overall, comparing times with other drivers my increased driving skill(or calmer state of mind lol), from first time out to second time out, got me about half a second.

During the layover between event five and this last event, I scrounged up some stock RLCAs and changed to some new Hankooks I had bought for my ’86 Mustang GT. The fronts where the same size, so I expected an increase in front grip. But I was worried about the rear. Through the first two events I fought and fought to keep the rear in the rear and the front in the front. So I was kind of worried about going from an okay 315 tire to a real good 255 tire, especially after “downgrading” from an aftermarket part (that supposedly helps with rear traction) to a stock part.

This last event I was able to go to ESP because of the ‘demodifying’. The rear grip was amazing compared to my first two events. Comparing my times to other cars times (limited pool due to the rain) that I had run the last two events…I picked up 3.5-4.0 seconds. Not only was I competitive, but I barely won ESP

I said all that to say this…I know you want everything to be “fair” and “even”, but I probably wouldn’t protest a car unless I thought the mod made the car faster than it would be if it was fully prepped for that class. In other words, if another Mach 1 showed up next event with aftermarket RLCAs only and ran in ESP with me and I wouldn’t say a word, because I would trade those RLCAs for an ESP legal PM3L, 5-Link, or Watts and day of the week.