Stf + stc = st???

[JohnW8]

Would anyone be opposed to this? We don't have the amount of people I expected in STF or STC, which is why I propose the combination.

I know its not SCCA's rules, but, we can change them as needed locally.

Ervin, You were the one that said it wasn't allowed.

Bumping is for when there is only one entrant. You get bumped up until you make a class. I'd wait and see how the STF numbers play out at points#1. If you are the only one in STF then I think you could be bumped to STC or higher until you get a class together. This make one wonder what about Championship points if a person gets bumped around all over the place STF today, STC next month or STR the following. For which class would you be accumulating points?

[kilgojr]

I think its funny that Ervin's rule book quote is in regards to the Ladies class.

[EWaugh]

Ervin if I ever get tires I'm planning on running STF with you. As long as you don't mind 2nd place anyway.

[J2870]

Well, after reading this insanely long and detailed discussion (which is good), frankly im confused. I prob. wont have new tires till half way through the season so I'm not really concerned with where im at till then. Just lemme know where to go.

[JohnW8]

Well, after reading this insanely long and detailed discussion (which is good), frankly im confused. I prob. wont have new tires till half way through the season so I'm not really concerned with where im at till then. Just lemme know where to go.

Where have you been running Jeremiah? ST?

ACCORDING TO THE 2012 RULEBOOK
It's listed Stock class is G-Stock
or
STC due to
(Sedans & Coupes NOC (nonsports-car-based; 4-seat minimum; up to 3.1L normally aspirated)
The Mitsubishi Eclipse isn't listed by name in any of the ST appendices.

[kilgojr]

Well, after reading this insanely long and detailed discussion (which is good), frankly im confused. I prob. wont have new tires till half way through the season so I'm not really concerned with where im at till then. Just lemme know where to go.

Jeremiah, you are STC. No other place.

[TouringBubble]

If Jeremiah is running STC then the Cube should too, as it's also an STC car. Ervin's 2 is an STF car.

[musclewrench]

Stf

TB, said I should run in STC.

If Jeremiah is running STC then the Cube should too, as it's also an STC car. Ervin's 2 is an STF car.

While the catch all is any NOC sedan or coupes, I think we based the STF decision because the Cube is most similar to the Scion xB, Appendix A, pg 181. I think that STF would still be the right decision if someone showed up in a KIA Soul for example. STF is a curious class when you look at it. All of the newer Mazdas are lumped into this class 2, 3 & 6. Perhaps its more of a power to weight thing like in the case of the VW Golfs. The NA is in STF but the turbo in STC even though the catch all is all sedan and coupes NOC. When I compared the published HP to weight of the Mazda 2 to the Cube, I actually faired a hair better coming in at 0.43 vice 0.42; but my math like most things in my frig is fuzzy.

[kilgojr]

TB, said I should run in STC.



While the catch all is any NOC sedan or coupes, I think we based the STF decision because the Cube is most similar to the Scion xB, Appendix A, pg 181. I think that STF would still be the right decision if someone showed up in a KIA Soul for example. STF is a curious class when you look at it. All of the newer Mazdas are lumped into this class 2, 3 & 6. Perhaps its more of a power to weight thing like in the case of the VW Golfs. The NA is in STF but the turbo in STC even though the catch all is all sedan and coupes NOC. When I compared the published HP to weight of the Mazda 2 to the Cube, I actually faired a hair better coming in at 0.43 vice 0.42; but my math like most things in my frig is fuzzy.

Paul, you don't even want to get into the history that lead to the classing breakdown of ST. If you think things are fuzzy now, your brain will be mush like a Hulu commercial by the time you get done with the 3 year history (yes, only 3 years) that went from ST, STU, STX to the now STF, STR, STC, STU, STX, and whatever else there is.

[JohnW8]

If Jeremiah is running STC then the Cube should too, as it's also an STC car. Ervin's 2 is an STF car.

RE the CUBE: Just getting measurements from intertoobs with stock everything the Cube would not be eligible due to its rollover risk. The Cube we had with us last weekend was quite a bit lowered. We really ought to measure it just to be sure.

Vehicles with a SSF less than 1.30 should not be permitted to compete
in our SoloŽ events due to their higher risk of roll over.
As an alternative to SSF, the U.S. Department of Transportation
Rollover Rating may be considered as a criterion for acceptability. A
model with a rollover rating of 14% or less is considered acceptable.

The following are examples of
vehicles excluded from Stock for reasons of stability, per 3.1:
Scion xB (2004-06)


According to the Nissan Website
a Stock CUBE: has a track/height SSF ratio of = .89
Height: 65.0
Track f/r: 58.1 / 58.3

Compared to the excluded Scion xB
A stock Scion xB: has a track/height SSF ratio of = .94
Height: 63.4
Track f/r: 60/59.8

So from this the CUBE has a higher rollover potential than a Scion xB which has been excluded from classing.

We need to measure Musclewrenches car since he is talking about putting more grip on
the car to compete with Ervin.

[kilgojr]

RE the CUBE: Just getting measurements from intertoobs with stock everything the Cube would not be eligible due to its rollover risk. The Cube we had with us last weekend was quite a bit lowered. We really ought to measure it just to be sure.

Vehicles with a SSF less than 1.30 should not be permitted to compete
in our SoloŽ events due to their higher risk of roll over.
As an alternative to SSF, the U.S. Department of Transportation
Rollover Rating may be considered as a criterion for acceptability. A
model with a rollover rating of 14% or less is considered acceptable.

The following are examples of
vehicles excluded from Stock for reasons of stability, per 3.1:
Scion xB (2004-06)


According to the Nissan Website
a Stock CUBE: has a track/height SSF ratio of = .89
Height: 65.0
Track f/r: 58.1 / 58.3

Compared to the excluded Scion xB
A stock Scion xB: has a track/height SSF ratio of = .94
Height: 63.4
Track f/r: 60/59.8

So from this the CUBE has a higher rollover potential than a Scion xB which has been excluded from classing.

We need to measure Musclewrenches car since he is talking about putting more grip on
the car to compete with Ervin.

I actually did discuss this with him before he ran. The second criteria is the US Dept of Transportation rating for rollover. The Nissan Cube got a 4 out of 5 or 4.5 out of 5 on rollover risk and exceeded the standard for the rollover rating. He was allowed to run because of that. We can get the measurements if it is deemed so by you safety stewards, but according to the rulebook I allowed him to come because of the "alternative criteria" that he met.

[JohnW8]

I'm sure it was all covered but I am concerned if he gets some grippy skids.

Our lot has enough grit on it to let a car slide before flipping but he might get "lucky" and find a non sandy spot.

[rodhx]

STF, like STR, is a closed class. If a car is not specifically listed then it is not allowed. There is no flexibility to allow non-listed cars in these classes, just like there is no flexibility in the majority of the Stock, SP, etc classes. Other than Ervin's arcane bumping example...but that should be an event-by-event decision, not a season-long edict.

The way to get something classed is to send a letter to the SCCA. Sam did it to get the G35 moved from NOC to a specific listing. Musclewrench seems to have all the details needed for the letter so I suggest he try to get Cube specifically classed into STF. If that is successful then remove the braces and have at it.

There are many factors that go into the classing decisions. Even if the Cube specs look like STF, it seems to me the most obvious reason why it falls into the STC catchall is that no one really expected one to show up at an autocross. Visit sccaforums for any number of threads on this topic, especially regarding STF/STC.

[JohnW8]

STF, like STR, is a closed class. If a car is not specifically listed then it is not allowed. There is no flexibility to allow non-listed cars in these classes, just like there is no flexibility in the majority of the Stock, SP, etc classes. Other than Ervin's arcane bumping example...but that should be an event-by-event decision, not a season-long edict.

The way to get something classed is to send a letter to the SCCA. Sam did it to get the G35 moved from NOC to a specific listing. Musclewrench seems to have all the details needed for the letter so I suggest he try to get Cube specifically classed into STF. If that is successful then remove the braces and have at it.

There are many factors that go into the classing decisions. Even if the Cube specs look like STF, it seems to me the most obvious reason why it falls into the STC catchall is that no one really expected one to show up at an autocross. Visit sccaforums for any number of threads on this topic, especially regarding STF/STC.

Rod doesn't this line in STC cover that car?:
Sedans & Coupes NOC (nonsports-car-based; 4-seat minimum; up to 3.1L normally aspirated)

[rodhx]

It does John. Read what I posted

STF & STR are the listed closed examples. NOCs are found in STC and others.

Assuming it can pass rollover regulations.