race today

[claym]

Edited for being in a better mood....

[TouringBubble]

Lol ... so defensive Clay.

FWIW, I see your point. There is a general stigma that autocrosses have that says "keep in the throttle till the lights." With this mindset, yes ... you hit the brakes after the lights. But, there is no reason a visual stopping marker, such as a row of cones, couldn't be used to say "stop here, no matter where the lights are."

Imagine your daily commute ... you are driving down the street and approaching a traffic signal that's green. The signal says green, but traffic is stopped in your lane. Do you not stop because the signal is green? No. You stop.

[claym]

Not really. A LONG time ago, I used to complain about courses being too tight or just not fun. I was told to stop complaining and address the problem. So I started designing courses. I would get the same complaints about courses that I would use, and tried to improve them every event taking constructive criticism and using it to design better courses.

I have been to autocrosses all over the country (and Nationals) and tried to take good ideas from other areas and incorporate them into our events. I take into account all the novices especially, because if they have a bad first event, it is usually their last event. Also, if people from other regions come here to play and do not have fun, they will probably not return.

I have designed courses for AL, TVR, TAC, and SEDIV and really enjoy doing it. I usually know how a course is going to flow before the first car starts. I'm not trying to brag, but I have done this a LONG time. I am not the fastest driver (and never will be), but my first priority in designing a course IS safety and a close second is FUN (for newbies as well as the most seasoned drivers).

You express a desire to change something that doesn't NEED to change and will add unnecessary safety issues to the course and decrease the fun factor. . That is frustrating to me, and I am sorry. You seem adamate that the placing of the finish lights doesn't matter. Yet you will not step up and try to prove this. So really, all you are doing is griping. So yes, I disagree. I don't think you have thought it out very well. I have SEEN the stopbox idea not work in this club and at others.

Einstein's definition of insanity is doing the same thing but expecting different results. I have seen the results and do not want to practice insanity. There are too many participants we could lose...

[claym]

Lol ... so defensive Clay.

FWIW, I see your point. There is a general stigma that autocrosses have that says "keep in the throttle till the lights." With this mindset, yes ... you hit the brakes after the lights. But, there is no reason a visual stopping marker, such as a row of cones, couldn't be used to say "stop here, no matter where the lights are."

Imagine your daily commute ... you are driving down the street and approaching a traffic signal that's green. The signal says green, but traffic is stopped in your lane. Do you not stop because the signal is green? No. You stop.

Imagine any other kind of racing that has you slow down before you cross the finish...

I do have to admit that this is the best smack talk on these boards in awhile. I miss it...

[TouringBubble]

Imagine any other kind of racing that has you slow down before you cross the finish...

I do have to admit that this is the best smack talk on these boards in awhile. I miss it...

Imagine another kind of racing where you drive as fast as possible in a parking lot. (Read as: Autocross is unique in many ways.)

I would have no problem designing courses, and have expressed interest in the past. I wish I could shadow a designer, but I'm generally stuck in the trailer setting up the PCs and timing equipment and registering entrants. I will take you up on designing a course one day, I just don't know when.

And, I don't consider this smack talk ... just a friendly discussion.

[JohnW8]

Imagine another kind of racing where you drive as fast as possible in a parking lot. (Read as: Autocross is unique in many ways.)

I would have no problem designing courses, and have expressed interest in the past. I wish I could shadow a designer, but I'm generally stuck in the trailer setting up the PCs and timing equipment and registering entrants. I will take you up on designing a course one day, I just don't know when.

And, I don't consider this smack talk ... just a friendly discussion.

Matt, If you want to shadow a course designer get someone to cover the T&S and then you can shadow a course designer. I don't want ANYONE feeling stuck in any position on the setup crew, myself included.

[TouringBubble]

I know, but once I'm there I kinda get in the zone and take over ... you've seen me. I'll try to get out on course some time during the season. Thanks for the backup.

[claym]

Solo Rules 2010 2.2.J-L Course Safety and Layout Rules

"J. Extreme care shall be taken in the location of the start, fi nish, staging,
and timing areas. The timers and staging area must be placed
well clear of the course in a safe area. The fi nish section and course
exit should be clearly and carefully defi ned to safely restrict speeds.
It is not recommended that competing cars be required to come to a
complete stop immediately following the fi nish line. It is preferred that
cars be required to slow to a walking speed within a controlled area
before returning to the grid or paddock areas. A complete stop should
be required only when unusual site conditions exist. In all cases, a
suffi cient distance past the fi nish line must be available to safely slow
or halt any competing car from the highest possible speed attainable
at the fi nish without locking brakes or wild maneuvering. It is recommended
that an offi cial be assigned to control the fi nish area. Particular
care must be exercised in the fi nish area to keep it free from
hazard to participants and non-participants.
K. Entrance and exit lanes shall enter the course at separate points,
though they may be close together. They will be kept clear for use by
competing cars at all times.
L. Portions of the course where signifi cant braking is necessary shall
not terminate at a point where participants, non-participants or obstacles
are directly in front at a distance closer than that required to
bring a car to a halt even with brake problems, a stuck throttle, etc."

[e30Racer]

entertaining!!!! Can someone get me a coke?

[rodhx]

Look back at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLwRJIaeqcI) and stop it where the stop lights are (looks like Rod was doing around 40mph at stop light). By the time most people can hit the brakes AFTER the finish lights, there is too short a distance to stop safely and in control. And this was a Miata with an experienced autocrossser, sticky tires and great brakes!

This is the most ridiculous statement in this entire thread. Me...experienced???

[TouringBubble]

Solo Rules 2010 2.2.J-L Course Safety and Layout Rules

"J. Extreme care shall be taken in the location of the start, fi nish, staging,
and timing areas. The timers and staging area must be placed
well clear of the course in a safe area. The fi nish section and course
exit should be clearly and carefully defi ned to safely restrict speeds.
It is not recommended that competing cars be required to come to a
complete stop immediately following the fi nish line. It is preferred that
cars be required to slow to a walking speed within a controlled area
before returning to the grid or paddock areas. A complete stop should
be required only when unusual site conditions exist. In all cases, a
suffi cient distance past the fi nish line must be available to safely slow
or halt any competing car from the highest possible speed attainable
at the fi nish without locking brakes or wild maneuvering. It is recommended
that an offi cial be assigned to control the fi nish area. Particular
care must be exercised in the fi nish area to keep it free from
hazard to participants and non-participants.
K. Entrance and exit lanes shall enter the course at separate points,
though they may be close together. They will be kept clear for use by
competing cars at all times.
L. Portions of the course where signifi cant braking is necessary shall
not terminate at a point where participants, non-participants or obstacles
are directly in front at a distance closer than that required to
bring a car to a halt even with brake problems, a stuck throttle, etc."

Then that settles it. Thanks for the link.

The only rebuttal I would have is that a stop box doesn't have to terminate in to an unsafe area, which would abide by the rules fine. But, if the recommendation of the SCCA is to not have such finishes, then my suggestions are void.

The "past the finish line" part completely backs up your statements and kicks mine in the face. Good to know.

[Focus]

Pwnd

[TouringBubble]

Clay = 1
Matt = 0

It's cool ... I'll just DNF all his runs next event ... =P

[claym]

Clay = 1
Matt = 0

It's cool ... I'll just DNF all his runs next event ... =P

Not again...

No hard feelings Matt. I get too involved in this for my own good. Trying to be in 2 different events last Sunday AND having to fly to Spain that afternoon along with ripping a custom swaybar link thru the swaybar hole while running and swapping both endlinks back to stock between runs..... I'm just getting too old. But I just don't know when to stop....

Look forward to the next event if I'm in town and can make it.

[kilgojr]

Um, just to throw this out there.....rules are rules, but there are ways to read them and many interpretations, I think it could be read several ways:
"It is not recommended that competing cars be required to come to a
complete stop immediately following the finish line. It is preferred that
cars be required to slow to a walking speed within a controlled area
before returning to the grid or paddock areas. A complete stop should
be required only when unusual site conditions exist."
Technically you could say that:
Slow to a walking speed within a controlled area before returning to the grid or paddock area........I don't think any cars had any problem with this. It was 9/10 of a mile from grid to course to grid (by JohnW8 yellow miata odometer) So we accomplished this portion of the regulation.
A complete stop should be required only when unusual site conditions exist....we definitely had an unusual site condition as everyone can agree on.
I honestly don't see why everyone is getting all up-in-arms about this last course layout. I saw people going through the cones at the end of the course, but it wasn't everyone, and it wasn't every run. The majority of people I saw going through the cones were veteran drivers. A few of the novices had close calls with going through the cones, but its not like people were going 20 feet past the end of the box, most people were sliding through and just bumping the cones at the end, or maybe half a car length past the end of the box. No one hit the timing lights, and no one I saw was out of control in any way that would put themselves or anyone else in danger.

I think these past two points events have been exceptional uses of the space we have provided and courses that challenged everyone involved. There is nothing that makes me more excited than someone thinking out of the box and coming up with a completely new way to work with what they are given. We could set up every course with a slalom, a sweeper, a slalom, a box, and a slow finish, but no one wants that. I think Clay can even say that he gets tired of designing courses that set up "basically" the same way every time. I feel that Eric has done an excellent job at throwing some new spin on the same ol' lot of crap that we have to drive on. I have not heard that much excitement about a course since last years SSSS. I think everyone had a good time, and that is all that matters.