race today

[VERNON]

It seems then, that a reverse box would really blow a lot of drivers minds.

[OverDrive418]

^With a huge pyro explosion that goes off like in Bullrun!

[TouringBubble]

^With a huge pyro explosion that goes off like in Bullrun!

You're not allowed to race with us anymore.

[OverDrive418]

What? We have fire extinguishers!

[chuck schultz]

The DNF for cones was mentioned in the drivers' meeting, but lots of people were talking among themselves for most of the meeting.

No matter how many times you've heard what's essentially the same speech, it's important to listen, because there might be a chance to win a golden ticket.

[TouringBubble]

The DNF for cones was mentioned in the drivers' meeting, but lots of people were talking among themselves for most of the meeting.

No matter how many times you've heard what's essentially the same speech, it's important to listen, because there might be a chance to win a golden ticket.

Which is why I think it would be good to make the stop box a permanent feature. After a couple of events it would just be ingrained.

[claym]

IMHO, I think that we should avoid a stop "BOX". They can be less safe than slowing people down to a crawl, especially if people don't have great brakes (like many cars). I have never been to a National event where one is used, and penalty cones hit after the finish are a 2 sec penalty like the rest of the course. A proper finish will give even the poorer braking cars a nice straight braking zone long enough to slow down to 5 mph speed. If there is not enough room for this, the finish lights should be backed up to allow it. The finish in the video had an exit that I feel forced many cars to be braking hard and turn in a short distance, which most cars do not do well (or under control).
And does the car have to come to a COMPLETE stop or can it be still moving ultra-slow? And if the car stops with the nose outside the stop box, is it still a DNF? The course finish should allow a safe exit from the course at 5mph. It's about safety!

I'm sure the comments will begin soon

I would challenge people to go to other regions (Hville uses one of the best lots in the SE), or National events (Arkansas is only 5 hrs away at the end of next month) and see how other clubs set up courses and run events. It's a lot of fun and often a humbling experience...

[TouringBubble]

Clay, people were not supposed to "weave" at the end of the box and exit. They were supposed to stop in a straight line, then continue out of the opening. Some people used that opening to circumvent the purpose of the stop box, and you're right ... it did make it more unsafe.

This is why I suggested using a closed box that had to be opened after each run to let cars exit. This would enforce the "stop" part of the obstacle and standard "cone box" rules would apply for penalties.

[JohnW8]

And it would've created another worker position to which we didn't have a worker to assign.

Let's take the lessons learned and move on to the next event. It was a fun course that still needed a bit of tweaking. It was an experiment with a smaller lot but a better surface.

I'm working on cheat sheets for the drivers meeting because I constantly forget to say something that later turns out to be important.

[claym]

IMHO, I think that we should avoid a stop "BOX". A proper finish will give even the poorer braking cars a nice straight braking zone long enough to slow down to 5 mph speed. If there is not enough room for this, the finish lights should be backed up to allow it.

I still think this is the best answer (and so do most regions). A stop lane that does not give a poorer braking car or novice driver (or both) time to come to a 5mph speed at the end of the finish (after they come off the throttle and on the brakes AFTER the finish light) is NOT long enough. Hitting cones in a stop box does not make it safer. They could go thru the stop box at 50mph vs 5 mph and get the same penalty but is one much more dangerous? And a stop box will cause flat spots in most any car without ABS brakes, which is costly AND dangerous.

Look back at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLwRJIaeqcI) and stop it where the stop lights are (looks like Rod was doing around 40mph at stop light). By the time most people can hit the brakes AFTER the finish lights, there is too short a distance to stop safely and in control. And this was a Miata with an experienced autocrossser, sticky tires and great brakes!

I STRONGLY discourage a stop box in an event. You are trying to mask the problem with this vs correcting the safety issue. I have seen many more cars have problems with a stop box feature than a proper slow down area. That is why most clubs don't use them. I am just trying to share what I have seen in my 25 years of autocrosses around the country. If the club decides to use them, so be it.

[TouringBubble]

Hitting cones in a stop box does not make it safer. They could go thru the stop box at 50mph vs 5 mph and get the same penalty but is one much more dangerous? And a stop box will cause flat spots in most any car without ABS brakes, which is costly AND dangerous.

I completely agree. But, "stop box" doesn't specifically mean slam on the brakes 110% to make the stop ... it just means you have to come to a complete stop before exiting the course ... if that's 5' or 500' is up to the designer and safety steward.

Also, no one says you have to hit the brakes AFTER the lights. I was bleeding speed way before the kink and never had an issue stopping, even with my super heavy car. It was the kink, and not the box that bothered me.



(FWIW, I was crossing the lights at a reported 44 mph and still stopped in the defined area.)

Neither a loose or short finish is an acceptable choice, stop box or no. but we do have issues with finishes in our region. With the space being limited more and more as the season goes on, it's gotten worse. Something has to be done, an not everyone will be happy. And, if everyone isn't happy, we may as well be consistent.

In all honestly, I just don't want David's shiny red car sliding toward my rear end again as I sit at start hoping that I'm not filling out an insurance claim over the lunch break.

[claym]

I completely agree. But, "stop box" doesn't specifically mean slam on the brakes 110% to make the stop ... it just means you have to come to a complete stop before exiting the course ... if that's 5' or 500' is up to the designer and safety steward.

Neither a loose or short finish is an acceptable choice, stop box or no. but we do have issues with finishes in our region. With the space being limited more and more as the season goes on, it's gotten worse. Something has to be done, an not everyone will be happy. And, if everyone isn't happy, we may as well be consistent.

In all honestly, I just don't want David's shiny red car sliding toward my rear end again as I sit at start hoping that I'm not filling out an insurance claim over the lunch break.

That's one reason why I think the start and finish should not be in the same area. I would like to see the course start at the top and finish at the bottom. You eliminate the finishing cars heading towards the staged cars. The lights should work fine at that distance, but someone could take them out there one afternoon and check to see how far they can actually reach. If they do reach, it gives us more course ideas to try.

Slamming on the brakes looked like the ONLY way to POSSIBLY slow down in time. And a safety steward that would approve a course with a 5' stop box after the finish lights? Maybe they would need a safety refresher

[TouringBubble]

Slamming on the brakes looked like the ONLY way to POSSIBLY slow down in time. And a safety steward that would approve a course with a 5' stop box after the finish lights? Maybe they would need a safety refresher

Again, you're using Sunday's course as your reference for stop boxes. It wasn't perfect and the first time we've tried it. Eric planned for something completely different and it just didn't work out as planned.

And you know that 5' was an exaggeration ... but what about 20'? Where is the problem? The car just has to clear to register a time. If there is a straight braking zone before the lights, does it matter where the lights are? If you're doing 40 mph or 4 mph at the lights, you still get a time. It seems to me like you have the idea stuck that you have to be at WOT at the lights no matter what.

[claym]

Also, no one says you have to hit the brakes AFTER the lights. .

Now I COMPLETELY disagree with this. A course should NEVER have a design where you are having to apply the brakes before the finish. The finish lights are also the "take your foot off the accelerator and apply the brakes" indicator. You will have ALL kinds of out of control cars if you have to "find" the place to decrease your speed before the finish lights and stop in the box 5' after the finish lights (or 20').

The events SHOULD be about safety first, then fun. Common sense and consistency should also be used. I try to design a course that is safe, fun, challenging (without newbies or seasoned drivers getting lost) and visually consistant (pointer cones, walls, gates that point you to the next gate so the course is easier to follow). I am still trying to improve this after designing courses for almost 20 years. Trying to get novices (or even seasoned drivers) to start braking before they trigger the finish lights would be nearly impossible and is unnecessary. If you can show me other regions that do this, I am willing to be more open-minded...

[TouringBubble]

I'm saying that the finish of the course should be straight and have plenty of room to slow down, or stop for every car on the course. I think we agree there. Within that, the position of the lights is irrelevant, IMO.

Just because no one else does it, doesn't mean it's not acceptable.