race today

[ExplosEvo]

Back in the "old country," we ran two-lap events on small lots on a regular basis, and even experienced folks still lost count, either doing one or three laps, occasionally. It's just one of the factors that come into play on small lots. It can be a great source of subject matter for good-natured taunting.

I think the getting lost part may have partially been a product of having more cones than really necessary to describe the course. There is a tendency to try to make the intended path clear by having "just one more cone" here or there, but it's really easy to have the "sea of cones" effect take over, if you're not careful.

As many SSSes as we had wandering around, you might think that one of us would've said something about the way the finish was (not) working out. I have a really slow car with pretty good brakes and tires, and I didn't have enough room to stop easily. I won't be so shy about expressing reservations, in the future, especially since the national office has been pounding into our heads that start/finish areas are a subject of concern.

In all, it was a fun, faster-than-expected course with enough features, both man-made and natural, to keep us thinking and grinning.

I can only say this from watching the video that was posted on the other thread, but watching that video I was LOST in all the cones that were out there. Im sure it would have made alot more sense to actually be there and walk the course, but it definitely looked confusing. In any case, I wish I coulda had a shot at killing some of those cones!

I also really like the idea of the stop box, but Im sure I would also complain about some of those issues that Matt is talking about.

[J2870]

I agree with Matt and the others. The problem wasn't so much the distance, so much as the kink. Maybe if we put the timing light closer to the turnoff.

[J2870]

of the circuit, not on to the road.

[jimkana]

Course design is a tricky art of balancing safety requirements, demanding technical ability while letting the whole thing be fun. Sometimes you try something that you think is going to be fantastic and its a dud. Sometimes, you think a feature or course will be painfully slow or awkward and it works out to be smooth. Then too, people's perception of what the course should look like will enter into their experience of what they actually drove. In that case, Perception really is reality.

It is easy to get attached to a certain feature or section that has a feel or rhythm that you like. I don't like to make painful features, but if there is a reward for the driver that gets it right and punishment for those who do not, I get to like it a lot more.

Several of you heard me say before we drove that this course was going to be slow, tight, painful and over in 30 seconds. In reality, it had a pretty good flow, was a lot faster than I expected, had a couple of technically rewarding points and lasted right about a minute. So if you liked it, I planned it that way. If you didn't - well its not my fault.

All that to say that I expected the cars to already be moving slow by the time they hit the kink at the end, and could trip the lights at a slower speed. It worked out to actually be a fast section that was a real gut check. You had to decide that the car was going to stick and make it so. So, I end up liking it a lot more than I thought I would.

Consider though, all that was happening at that point: There is a start, a finish, a turnaround and the end of a slalom. Then there was the placement of the timing light at the end. Do you put the fragile bit on the outside of the kink, where someone could slide to it while finishing, or put it on the inside, where someone could slide to it while starting lap #2?

Then consider that few of us have ever done a 2 lapper. Even experienced people get confused on this kind of course. Then we have a significant number of n00bs who are still trying to get used to the whole autocross thing anyway. Put too many cones out and you get the "sea of cones"; put too few and its easy to lose one's way. I have seen many experienced autocrossers DNF by going past features that were well marked if you had your mind right, but in retrospect, could appear to be something else depending on the angle that the driver entered. Screw up 2 features back and you see something unplanned. Hence we try to "idiot-proof" the course by marking with more cones.


All that to say that you should have just bought a Sports Car instead of a SEDAN, Matt.
Besides that, you have no excuse for not beating a 100hp PeePee car with your Fire-breathing 300hp beast, no matter how heavy.

[TouringBubble]

Geez ... I can't even give a suggestion here without getting crap ... I simply said that the faster cars were getting loose there and that lots of cars hit cones after the finish. It's a learning experience for the designer I'd say. Now you know some people had issues.

And, BTW, it was at about 345hp on Sunday (on low boost) and I beat plenty of SPORTS CARS in my SEDAN. Maybe YOU chose the wrong car? You couldn't even out PAX me ... and I'm actually up-classed from BSP to SM.

[newmixcar]

i think we should try a box feature or 2 in the next course it would add some more technical parts and slow certain sections down some IMO but what do i know i've never designed a course. i have to say all in all i really enjoyed the course and learned some good info from the veteran miata drivers that should help me in the future. that being said isn't this really about the experience meeting people and learning.

[chuck schultz]

Here is a thought if you think the finish is too fast: SLOW DOWN.

The only problems I saw at the finish was that some people waited too late to hit the brakes and took out a few cones. No one hit a curb, a light pole, another car or a person - nor did they even come close. The temptation and the assumption is that you can be full throttle all the way through the lights.

This is nice in theory, but it's the Region's responsibility to make the course safe. Lack of an incident doesn't prove safety. There were several occasions where, if there had been through traffic, there would have been collisions. If we aren't willing to enforce a stop box consistently, we need to change the course so the finish can be safe without it. A real stop box has no escape without hitting cones, and requires a worker to move a cone out of the way after the stop. This also sets up a situation where a car could stall, leaving a target for the next car on course.

With that said, I am not a course designer (I proved that a few years ago.) This week's course was great fun, and was a learning experience for all, including this young SSS.

[jimkana]

Geez ... I can't even give a suggestion here without getting crap ...

Not trying to give you crap or single you out about your comment other than to try to help everyone understand the limitations that we are working under when we build the course.

I will give you crap about your sedan, as that is all good natured.

[rodhx]

BTW, I was down by the finish for most of group 1's morning runs and all of the afternoon runs. Very few cars hit cones after the finish in the morning, and perhaps 1 cone all afternoon. Now there were a few cars that never attempted to stop...

Can't speak to the 2nd group. But if the opening had not been there I would have tapped one over a coupla times.

[OverDrive418]

Now you know some people had issues.

That goes without saying! LOL

^I'm sorry, I had too much downtime this week!

I think if a stop box is a consistant feature then drivers will eventually learn to use it properly, if appropriate penalties are used in enforcing the stop box. I am all for the idea. Braking is a HUGE part of driver improvement along with negotiating corners and accelerating when appropriate, why not include this as a permenant feature?
If the kink is an issue then sure, go ahead and take it out, but then I would suggest that by doing that you have no need to shorten the length of the box.

[Kevin McMahon]

The only real problem I had with the "Stop Box" is that the first group was told every run in the first session to come to a complete stop. And then when the second group goes out there, half of the drivers didnt even attempt to stop, and there is no warnings or penalties.

Like a couple of my other posts, im new and learning a lot of the things that go on at an autox, but be sure that if one group of people is being told one thing, and another group is doing something completely different, it will piss off/confuse/frustrate some people, just like hypocrisy does in the normal world.

[TouringBubble]

I think if a stop box is a consistant feature then drivers will eventually learn to use it properly, if appropriate penalties are used in enforcing the stop box. I am all for the idea. Braking is a HUGE part of driver improvement along with negotiating corners and accelerating when appropriate, why not include this as a permenant feature?

I completely agree. We've had many issues with course finishes in this region and enforcing a full stop would likely help with this.

I've seen stop boxes at the end of courses with a cone that had to be moved by a worker before the car could exit the course, which forced a complete stop. Maybe that could be considered, provided we have the workers and worker safety is not an issue.

I will give you crap about your sedan, as that is all good natured.

Of course

BTW, I'm not sure your numbers are easily seen by corner workers or the trailer ... perhaps you should consider a better contrasting color or a larger size.

[JohnW8]

The only real problem I had with the "Stop Box" is that the first group was told every run in the first session to come to a complete stop. And then when the second group goes out there, half of the drivers didnt even attempt to stop, and there is no warnings or penalties.

Like a couple of my other posts, im new and learning a lot of the things that go on at an autox, but be sure that if one group of people is being told one thing, and another group is doing something completely different, it will piss off/confuse/frustrate some people, just like hypocrisy does in the normal world.

This was my fault for not mentioning it in the drivers meeting. Chuck Schultz the starter for the first group told the 1st group driver to stop in the box, when the 2nd group came up we had a different starter who didn't mention it to the 2nd group drivers so there was the miscommunication. I shoulda said something in the drivers meeting. No hypocrisy, just bad communicating on my part. If you see, hear or think something is wrong you gotta speak up. We are a volunteer organization and not paid employees so if things happen that are inconsistent let me or anyone in the trailer know. It will get resolved.

[Kevin McMahon]

This was my fault for not mentioning it in the drivers meeting. Chuck Schultz the starter for the first group told the 1st group driver to stop in the box, when the 2nd group came up we had a different starter who didn't mention it to the 2nd group drivers so there was the miscommunication. I shoulda said something in the drivers meeting. No hypocrisy, just bad communicating on my part. If you see, hear or think something is wrong you gotta speak up. We are a volunteer organization and not paid employees so if things happen that are inconsistent let me or anyone in the trailer know. It will get resolved.

I understand, i wasnt saying it was really something that bothered me, because I really have enough to worry about with myself. Even though its after the fact I just wanted to make sure the people who are usually in the know are in the know. Really i dont have to worry about being super competitive at the moment so im just trying to help make sure that communication is thorough. Because in all walks of life communication is key. I think the stop box is a good idea, but it would definitely would need to be brought up in the morning and make sure everyone knows what the rules are with it.

[OverDrive418]

At one point in the morning group I heard failure to stop was a DNF because of the safety factor, which as the day wore on didn't seem to be a factor.
I think a DNF may be too much, depending on location of exit, but a sea of cones at the finish with appropriate cone deductions may be enough to get the idea going that if you don't stop in time you get a penalty. That is of course if you at least attempt to stop and not just blaze through it, in which case to me would be sufficient for a DNF.
Make it a regular feature and it will catch on if addressed in a morning meeting. I think it will be embraced in time as a safety feature and I look forward to its implementaion if such a feature is used again.