Time trials Nationals!!

[rodhx]

I kind of liked the single hot lap thing. It's not really a time trial event, it sounded like an autox run on a racetrack with no cones. Might be a fun competition. No cone penalties but plenty of "Oh my God, I hit that wall hard" penalties. I wouldn't call this Time Trials though.

That is what the "segment" thing is starting to look like. Otherwise known as a trackcross. I did one last year and it's a lot of fun. I would be lobbying for us to run a TGPR event (not a TT event) with that format if the cost could work out.

[farrout]

I kind of liked the single hot lap thing. It's not really a time trial event, it sounded like an autox run on a racetrack with no cones. Might be a fun competition. No cone penalties but plenty of "Oh my God, I hit that wall hard" penalties. I wouldn't call this Time Trials though.

You have hit upon the basic question that we all are struggling with. "What is Time Trials?

Is it the Track Trials (SOLO 1) we have been doing since the late 70's? Is it the Club Trials format (Same as Track Trials without the safety gear)? Is it to become this new format that resembles an advanced SOLO?

SCCA National is running off with their own ideas which do not appear to have any current TT driver input. The TT drivers need to speak up. You used to have that voice thru your DTTC representatives. Sadly, that form of representation has been killed by SCCA National after dismissing your representatives and disbanding the DTTC.

Go listen to the GRM interview that Tony Ewing posted on the TeamTac website.

[JohnW8]

My reference for time trials has always been the qualifying for theIndy 500. I’d watch the Time trials and be on the edge of my seat waiting to see who was going to put on top. That tight competition, measured in thousandths is what it was for me. A single car doing a hot lap or three on a clear track looking for a perfect line without distractions or encumbrance of other traffic. Our current format is a timed track day. Club trials is a timed track day without as much safety equipment. Why not do a Saturday of open track timed lapping for class placement, like we currently do, then on Sunday morning line and do a traditional one car at a time for class wins. After that open track for the rest of the day.

[nicktcr]

Why not do a Saturday of open track timed lapping for class placement, like we currently do, then on Sunday morning line and do a traditional one car at a time for class wins. After that open track for the rest of the day.

This sounds like a pretty healthy balance of getting folks some track time, while also allowing tight competition. I like it!

[farrout]

The SEDIV TT Committee always needs active participants who will take the time to find out what the TT drivers want in their TT program. They have to be willing to take the time to participate. Sitting back and contributing nothing to decisions does not do the program any good. The SEDIV DA will become the most important person for SEDIV TT now that the DTTC has been disbanded. Shane will need everyone's help in 2018. Shane's 3 year term as DA ends in 2018. Who is going to step up and lead the SEDIV TT Program if he decides to move on?

[JohnW8]

The SEDIV TT Committee always needs active participants who will take the time to find out what the TT drivers want in their TT program. They have to be willing to take the time to participate. Sitting back and contributing nothing to decisions does not do the program any good. The SEDIV DA will become the most important person for SEDIV TT now that the DTTC has been disbanded. Shane will need everyone's help in 2018. Shane's 3 year term as DA ends in 2018. Who is going to step up and lead the SEDIV TT Program if he decides to move on?

Nothing kills the conversation quicker than an appeal to step up and run the program.

[farrout]

With the direction that Heyward is steering the TT program, the future of the SEDIV TT program is even more dependent on the active support of the SEDIV TT Committee and the Regions.

Kill a conversation or kill a program?

[e30Racer]

I'm excited to see that the SCCA is finally giving TT national recognition via a national event. Is it a little different than what is normally done here in the southeast? yep. Could it change in the future? yep. But if we want the SCCA to think that TT is a viable endeavor, we should support it. After you experience what they have to offer, then give your feedback.

Maybe what they are offering isn't what has been "Time Trials" in the past, but maybe instead of saying that SCCA Nat'l is out of touch with what the regions are putting on, we should be asking if what the regions are putting on is out of touch with what people want in time trials? Declining participation seems to suggest that what the regions are putting on isn't what people want?

I plan to be there in September to support the program and to say that "yes, I want a national TT program". Now that being said, it being close is a major factor and I wouldn't travel more than 5+ hours to attend.

[JohnW8]

I'm excited to see that the SCCA is finally giving TT national recognition via a national event. Is it a little different than what is normally done here in the southeast? yep. Could it change in the future? yep. But if we want the SCCA to think that TT is a viable endeavor, we should support it. After you experience what they have to offer, then give your feedback.

Maybe what they are offering isn't what has been "Time Trials" in the past, but maybe instead of saying that SCCA Nat'l is out of touch with what the regions are putting on, we should be asking if what the regions are putting on is out of touch with what people want in time trials? Declining participation seems to suggest that what the regions are putting on isn't what people want?

I plan to be there in September to support the program and to say that "yes, I want a national TT program". Now that being said, it being close is a major factor and I wouldn't travel more than 5+ hours to attend.

Agreed. I just wish they would have come up with a new name instead instead of stealing the TT name and immediately putting a bunch of time-trialers on the defensive. Our lack of participation has more to do with the track than the event.

[farrout]

While I agree with having a National TT event, I disagree with the construct of this particular event.

In SEDIV, our TT Championship Series averages 46% GCR , 31% Solo, and 24% Formula cars. While there is a good PDX program in Florida, the Northern PDX is minimal. SEDIV is close to NEDIV as the largest TT programs and light years ahead of the rest of the country. The SEDIV TT Program is an end state unto itself for many drivers, allows many former racers to still drive their cars, has served as a training ground for many drivers to go forward to Club Racing licenses, has served as test and tune time for Club Racers, and has allowed many SOLO drivers to advance onto the track experience in a safe environment.

This National event is catering to PDX type cars (no vehicle or personal safety gear) and timing them (similar to a Club Trials) using a SOLO based timing system. Other than the Qualifying on Day One, the events resemble Time Attack and/or a Pro SOLO format. Fourteen car classes are mentioned and Formula and GCR cars appear to be excluded. None of the rules, supps or car classes have been written as this National event was only conceived in December by National staff, none of whom have any real TT experience.

SCCA tried to establish a SOLO Trials (high speed SOLO) program after they split off SOLO I into Time Trials. SOLO Trials did not survive. This National event is trying to copy other existing programs by For Profit groups. Any resemblance to the very successful Time Trials program is coincidence.

I have asked the SEDIV Regions what they want for years now. Actual responses have been minimal. The car counts at a PDX or Club Trial have not been encouraging (other than in Florida which does not have Club or Track Trials).

Do the SCCA drivers want an advanced SOLO program to replace the current TT program? There are certain people at National that appear to want this to happen.

[JohnW8]

Excluding GCR and Formula car classes is ridiculous. I love autox and most national events are plenty fast. Why would they want to do this? Is it because big parking lots are getting too hard to find and they want autox to transition to racetracks?

[farrout]

The recent trend of new programs started with CRE then TNIA which was first touted as increasing membership. That membership metric failed and the propaganda changed to one of participation. You may have noticed that at the National event, drivers can get their TT License by basically completing the first practice day without incident. Suddenly, the requirement for multiple events or the SEDIV TT School in order to advance from TT Novice to your full TT license was determined to be no longer valid. In order to get your TT Novice license or your TT license, you must first be a full SCCA member. Voila, instant new membership plus the extra fees for the TT license.

The new target audience is the same one as TNIA, Targa, etc. Millennials with a hot street car that they want to drive fast. Currently, they are spending more money than a TT costs to go to the Track Days, Time Attacks, HPDE, etc. by the many groups that sponsor them. The target audience is not solely our current TT drivers. TNIA did not bring in the new memberships, maybe the new TT will.

Whether or not you like NASA, the NASA TT program has had great success by itself and also as a stepping stone to their racing program.

You may know that all of the SEDIV representatives to the TTAC/DTTC have been told their services were no longer required or left hanging when they volunteered for the new TT Committees. A year ago I spoke out strongly against Track Trials being eliminated as a TT event. I was told that SEDIV could put the safety requirements in their supps if they wanted to but the basic category was gone in favor of "Club Trials". My opposition was met with my dismissal. I can show you TTR that I authored a year ago for the TT reorganization. The DTTC disappeared and thus there are no new TTR for 2018 nor are there any TTR for the new TT Program that Mr Wagner demanded.

AS AN UPDATE: At the SEDIV Meetings, Heyward mentioned that TT would consist of Unrestricted (i.e., previously Club Trials) and Restricted (i.e., previously Track Trials) plus Hill Climbs. It appears he has gone back to what I proposed last December which he said was not going to happen in March.

[e30Racer]

I have not seen or heard anything regarding excluding formula cars or GCR cars. In fact, in the GRM interview, HW suggested that the classing would be similar to classing that is already found at most Time Trial Events. 4 basic classes would be used with the first 2 being geared more toward solo-prepped cars and the latter 2 being geared more toward GCR cars. If I am mistaken please let me know. I like the idea of simplifying the classes, that has always been one of my biggest gripes with SCCA Time Trials. There's just too many classes and when someone picks up the rule book to see where their car fits, they give up after 5 minutes because its too complicated. Then you add in region-specific classing and it gets worse. 14 classes, keep it simple. Global Time attack uses 4 classes with three subdivision in each class (RWD, AWD, and FWD). They are growing in popularity.

As for SCCA Nat'l trying something a little different at the TT Nationals, I'm ok with that. I have not heard that the new format is going to be forced on all of the regions and that the new format is what "Time Trials" will now have to be. Has SCCA Nat'l said that ALSCCA and TVR cannot put on a "traditional" time trial this year?

What would I prefer? I'm glad you asked...someone did ask right...? A traditional two-day TT event would be fine. But now that they've suggested changing it up, I like the idea of a Friday test day, Saturday run-groups with 15-20 min sessions, and then Sunday have what us Millennials call a "super lap battle" where you get one lap to post your best time. That sounds fun, mix it up a little bit. Require drivers to put together a single fast lap with one shot. Sounds like a true time trial to me, but everyone has their own ideas of what a time trial is.

The problem I have seen with SCCA National is that they the Time Trials program has never been high on their priority list. Autox and Club Racing are the bread-winners. They wouldn't put the time and money into Time Trials and everyone kept saying "well, there are other places that do PDX's and Time Attack, do we need to add another one?" Well, if you don't the people will leave and go elsewhere, which is exactly what's happened.

I'm looking forward to the TT Nat'l event and also anxiously awaiting Targa Southland 2018 announcements. Sounds like fun events to me.

[rodhx]

As for SCCA Nat'l trying something a little different at the TT Nationals, I'm ok with that. I have not heard that the new format is going to be forced on all of the regions and that the new format is what "Time Trials" will now have to be. Has SCCA Nat'l said that ALSCCA and TVR cannot put on a "traditional" time trial this year?

No. The main change with our Spring event is the death of the PDX name. This program is now nationally called "Track Event" which is similar to what Delanie has been pushing for some time.

I'm looking forward to the TT Nat'l event and also anxiously awaiting Targa Southland 2018 announcements. Sounds like fun events to me.

Unfortunately the focus on revamping Track Events/Time Trials/Hillclimbs has meant Targa is put on hold indefinitely. Targa is a fantastic program which became aspirational to many "non-traditional" SCCA participants. I enjoyed Targa 2017 as much as any event I've participated in and would rather do it again than go to Solo Nationals. Many past participants have expressed their disappointment. I think it also likely fell victim to budget pressure as I'm sure it cost the National office many thousands to put on.

Regarding the TT National Event...we may get an opportunity to try the format prior to the "big show". At the SeDiv conference this weekend several Regions, including SCR, NCR, ATL, discussed with Heyward to possibility of holding a similar event at CMP on Memorial Day weekend. Other Regions may also partner in the event to reduce costs and gain firsthand experience running the proposed format.

I agree with John that the use of "Time Trial" for the competitive on-track program is unfortunate, but I also struggle with anything that could be better and still meaningful for new folks.

If you have never tried it, the "trackcross" format is a huge amount of fun. Seems to be a great option for a TGPR event as it effectively addresses the tire wear issue. It seems that a combined Track Event/Trackcross could be at least as successful (fun/$/participant#) as what we're doing now. Note: that last comment doesn't necessarily mean change or abandon the traditional TT event.

[e30Racer]

I hate to hear that about Targa. With everyone raving so much about it last year I was looking forward to participating this year. Oh well.