licensing fees for TT

[Fusion Works]

Yeah, its awful quiet down in Bham.

I fully agree, I would personally make the seat fit the driver and bolt it firmly to the floor and then attach it to the roll bar as the rules require. However having two seats seems like an easy button. Having a stock seat for street use is better than a race seat anyways. Plus how many events are you doing a year that you need the race seat. If you are doing that many, you shouldn't be driving your race car on the street.

What makes you think stock seats are not designed for lateral loading? I am pretty sure stock seats go through more testing than most race seats ever will. The car manufactures have to deal with the government, soccer moms with kids, lawyers of those soccer moms, etc. Crash standards are pretty high these days.

Its funny, if you look at pictures of any FIA race car, you will notice there are no seat back braces and the belts are typically mounted pretty far back in the cockpit. Yet SFI demands our seats be firmly mounted in as many spots as possible with short belt runs. Have to wonder who actually has it right.

[zukitek]

is there a ruleset for the backbrace construction and its attachment ?

[zukitek]

Here is all I found


9.3.41.
SEATS
The driver’s seat shall be a one-piece bucket-type seat and shall be se
-
curely mounted. The back of the seat shall be firmly attached to the
main roll hoop, or its cross bracing, so as to provide aft and lateral sup
-
port. Seats
that have been
homologated to and mounted in accordance
with FIA standard 8855-1999,
or seats that have been certified to
FIA.
Standard.8862-2009 or higher need not have the seat back attached to
the roll structure. Seats with a back not attached to the main roll hoop
or its cross bracing may be mounted on runners only if they were part
of the FIA homologated seats assembly specified in an FIA homologated
race car. The homologation labels must be visible. Seat supports shall be
of the type listed on FIA technical list No.12 or No. 40 (lateral, bottom,
etc). Passenger seat back–if a folding seat, it shall be securely bolted or
strapped in place.
Mounting structures for racing seats may attach to the floor, cage and or
center tunnel. Seat mounting points forward of the main hoop, between
the center line of the car and the driver’s side door bar and rearward of

[zukitek]

Here is one solution I see to keep this seat in the car and run TT.

http://www.izzyscustomcages.com/images/CustCars/BMW/E30/SpecE30/KKSpecE30/P1010010.JPG

THe whole tube frame thing really throws a monkey wrench in when back bracing because the cover is in fact integrated into the structure of the seat . I can meet the letter of the law quite easily but I also want to meet the spirit of the law without creating other hazards in the process.....this all just sux! Ill figure something out but I aint friggin happy about it .

Lemme be clear . This seat is comfy once yur in it . I can drive for hours at a time with no fatigue (done it) . I dont have to adjust the seat. I built it on the adjusters because I was not sure how it was going to go initially. I might move the seat to vacuum the car but otherwise there is no need. I use the 3 point seat belts on the street...I use the 6 point on track . I do not possess the stock seat . I will not buy another stock seat .

It is unclear as to whether this seats certification expires in the rules . I did not read where it did but if it does then it requires a backbrace at that point no matter where or how its mounted on the floor.

[Fusion Works]

It works but its ugly.

You would be better off pulling the cover off the seat and welding a couple of tabs with weld nuts inside to the frame at the shoulders. Then put the cover back on and span the back of the seat with an aluminum or steel strip. Then attach the back brace to the strip that spans the back of the seat.

The letter of the law can be met with a simple piece of aluminum channel attached to the seat and to the roll bar. Is it a good idea? Probably not. Its your ass in danger if the brace fails. I would rather see you make something nice and strong.

You could also make a couple of tabs that weld to the tube frame at the shoulders. These will fit through the seat cover and you will have two pickup points on the seat frame to the roll cage. One problem I see with a single center point style brace is the ability of the seat back to pivot around that point in any accident that isn't a straight line collision. With the style I described above you eliminate the ability to twist, you have 6 points of contact with the seat/cage structure.

I have seen several stock cars that mount the front of the seat to the floor, the hips are attached to the lower portion of the cage and then the upper portion is attached at the shoulders.

http://www.stockcarracing.com/howto/134_0406_how_to_mount_a_seat_tech/viewall.html

I realize some of this is only applicable to the full cage setup, but you should be able to adapt something like it.

[zukitek]

there again ...this is me drinking the coolaid that I don't even think is necessary in the first friggin place.

[JohnW8]

I have seen several stock cars that mount the front of the seat to the floor, the hips are attached to the lower portion of the cage and then the upper portion is attached at the shoulders.

http://www.stockcarracing.com/howto/134_0406_how_to_mount_a_seat_tech/viewall.html

I realize some of this is only applicable to the full cage setup, but you should be able to adapt something like it.

In my Miata I wish there was room for this sort of thing, but there's not. Ones head would be sticking out the top causing yet another safety issue. Plus, the izzycages bracket that Ricky showed, if the seat isn't designed to take that load where the bracket is mounted, in an impact that bracket would go through the seat back and squarely in the base of his skull. That wouldn't be good. Some of the seats out there, carbon/kevlar etc., are designed to flex in order to help absorb some of the impact and bracing them to the cage would restrict their designed action. I know that Ricky's isn't because it's a tube frame seat.

[zukitek]

I really don't remember any of this language on slider mounting of FIA seats existing in the GCR back when I put the car on the TT track but I could be wrong but like John pointed out I certainly do not want to satisfy the rule by installing something that is going to create a larger hazard than the one that its supposedly there to prevent.

[Fusion Works]

Hence the reason I pointed out about welding the tabs inside the seat frame and spanning the back of the seat with a strip of steel or aluminum. That strip could have any number of mounting points to attach to the cage. If you did a simple 2in strip that spanned the full width of the seat using something like 3/16in aluminum flat bar, you could weld or bolt to that strip and it would not push through the seat. Also you could do two mounting tabs on the outer edges to connect two back braces to the harness bar. This would help resist twisting the seat and it would move the load point outside of the center of your back closer to your shoulders and the stronger points of your specific seat.

Years ago there was an accident where a racer was killed when hit from behind because his seat bent and caused him to hit the roll bar. SCCA's knee jerk reaction was to mandate seat back braces. Like it or not we are stuck with this rule.

John is correct in that many of the composite seats don't require a back brace because they are designed to provide flex in certain directions. FIA has specific testing procedures designed to make sure these seats are properly designed. If its such a big deal sell your tube frame seat and buy one of the composite seats. Then rotate it out every few years. Yes you may lose a little money doing this, but you will avoid the seat back brace argument all together.

[slowautoxr]

For such a simple rule, there is a lot of discussion. As a reader of the rules and coming from a Solo background, I see FIA seats on sliders without an upper brace as legal. I sent a letter to the TTAC requesting clarification. I linked this conversation in the letter.

[JohnW8]

For such a simple rule, there is a lot of discussion. As a reader of the rules and coming from a Solo background, I see FIA seats on sliders without an upper brace as legal. I sent a letter to the TTAC requesting clarification. I linked this conversation in the letter.

That's the rub Charles, it isn't just a simple rule. SCCA wants more people doing TT/PDX and they allowed the Autocrossers to come out and participate with the TT cars and classes. Now the rule is to follow the GCR/Roadracing rules to put back braces on seats that aren't designed for them or use factory seats that, truth be told, aren't designed for the rigors of track days. MOst of the autocross classed cars that TT entrants also drive these cars on the street and need the flexibility of slider mounted seats. There has to be a happy medium in there somewhere. If a factory slider can pass the stringent federal safety impact tests then why do we, the SCCA, feel the need to say it's not good enough? Just because Rickie's Sparco seat doesn't have a Sparco bracket does that alone make the seat unsafe? Obviously Ricky is frustrated enough to forgo the TT license and just run track days where his current seat arrangement is fine. I know that Ricky wouldn't be holding back in a PDX and would be running the same lap times as if he was a licensed TT driver. How does the seat know it's in a PDX event or a Timed TT event? The seat is considered fine in the former and dangerous in the latter. How does the seat know?

[Fusion Works]

The FIA allows sliders with dual locks, like a factory seat. Perhaps SCCA should do the same. However Sparco and other companies don't label their sliders as being FIA compliant.

Lawyers know everything.

Seats with a back not attached to the main roll hoop
or its cross bracing may be mounted on runners only if they were part
of the FIA homologated seats assembly specified in an FIA homologated
race car. The homologation labels must be visible. Seat supports shall be
of the type listed on FIA technical list No.12 or No. 40 (lateral, bottom,
etc).

The bolded part is what causes all the problems. Ricky's car isn't an FIA homologated car using an FIA homolgated seat and sliders. If the SCCA would change the rule to allow sliders equal to FIA spec we would be fine. Double locking sliders are more than adequate for strength in a race car.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/460C3E316AA9E32EC125797C003E3CE8/$FILE/8855-1999_Competition_seat.pdf

If you want the rule changed start writing letters to SCCA. That is the only way things change.

[zukitek]

here is the reality. I feel that the car and seat as is..... is the safest option. Backbracing_this_ seat is a bad idea. The very best I could hope for is coming up with the least dangerous option. As I said ..racing cars carries a danger of bodily harm. I assume that danger each time I strap in and I turn the key . I further follow the directions from grid to enter the track. IDGAF.....im gonna go drive this car as fast as I can no matter what no matter how the car is classed. This is based on being a Master Auto Repair Tech of 20 years and being a tech inspector at various SCCA races and more over being a student of my own projects for my 43 years on this earth . THis thread illustrates how dangerous it is to try and backbrace a FIA tube frame seat . The fact that there is not a back brace available for the seat says that its not something that the seat manufacturer wants to take on . I certainly see their point .

If I drill into one of those tubes then I have modified the design. I have also seriously compromised the seats structure by totally negating FIA certification. The seat is ruined if I do anything. The seats whole structure is a house of cards.

That being said...ISDGAF...I am going out there ...Im gonna go as fast as I can drive the car and stay on the black stuff. I bought the seat and prepped the car based on the rulebook at the time. The car got logbooked, the car has been legal untill now , Why does SCCA want me to further promote risk by forcing me to totally destroy this seats safety to meet the letter of one of its laws? its nonsense . At this point ...Ill either be in PDX at Barber at the labor day weekend CR or I will be your paddock marshall and maybe a corner worker /car pusher in tech.

Ill spend my money for my track day fix....Ill do it as safely as possible ...it just may not be with SCCA

[JohnW8]

:-(

[e30Racer]

Ricky, what type of seat do you have?