licensing fees for TT

[JohnW8]

From The April GCR



Just because your car has been operating out of compliance with the rules doesn't make it right.

I get that are cost associated with racing, Try doing drugs, because that is about as close as most of us can get to the high we get on track. I guarantee it will cost you more than regular racing.

Brett, That is from the GCR. Ricky's car is a Time Trials car based on an Autocross class. Shouldn't the Autocross rules apply to the seat mounting?

[Fusion Works]

That is an interesting hypothesis.

NOTE: This class was formerly called Street Modified in SEDIV TT. To avoid confusion with the Solo class of the same name, the class name changed to Street Unlimited in 2010.

This is at the top of the SU rules. Based on this reading it would imply that the SU class is now an entirely separate class from the solo based Street Mod. Another problem here with that thought process:

Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel systems,
etc.) are unrestricted except for the following limitations:
1. Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged
the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model.
Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer
will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related
only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents. Models
produced as a joint venture between manufacturers may utilize
any engine from any partner in the joint venture, provided that
an engine from the desired manufacturer was a factory option in
that particular model (e.g., Eagle Talon, available originally with
either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor from
Chrysler or Mitsubishi). This allows engine blocks manufactured
as production units for sale in other countries such as Japan or
Germany.

From the Solo Rules:

Based on this his car isn't legal for Street Mod anyways. So this in theory means he has to build the car to TT SU rules, which in that case would require the seat mounts to be mounted in a manner referenced by the GCR.

SEATS: It is highly recommended that the driver’s seat be replaced with a one‐piece bucket type
race seat and shall include an upper brace if non‐FIA homologated.

This could also add some confusion as well. From the 2014 TT rules. So we would assume if his seat is FIA spec and in date, then it could be mounted with sliders, except SCCA doesn't allow any seat to be mounted on Sliders unless the whole package has been FIA homologated.

Lots of confusion here. As a tech inspector I tend to default to the highest level of safety for the protection of my fellow competitors. However, if Ricky can make his case, I might accept a better argument that also fits within the rules. (BTW, I am not a big fan of seat back braces in general, hence the reason I bought a composite seat.)

[zukitek]

Here is my argument.

1) The mounting is solid as a rock.
2)it fits the car
3)it (the seat mounting)was engineered to and was tested to withstand and meet federal crash standards
4)all of the harnesses that secure me while i am in this seat are secured to other structures in the car . The seat is being sat in . That is the only thing the seat serves as .The shoulder harness is on the rollbar, the lap belts are on the floor pan, the sub belt is also secured to the floorpan.

I fail to see a safety issue here except that I changed the seat at all!! This would be a totally differant situation if the belts were bolted to the seat. Show me the problem. I see the rule and I understand the assertion that I need to have a backbrace based on the language in that rule....but show me that rules context in this particular situation.

[zukitek]

SEATS: It is highly- recommended -that the driver’s seat be replaced with a one‐piece bucket type
race seat and shall include an upper brace if non‐FIA homologated.


Here was my mistake. I should have left the stock seat in and braced it to the bar and I would have saved 300 bucks EHHHH...

[DelanieC]

Here was my mistake. I should have left the stock seat in and braced it to the bar and I would have saved 300 bucks EHHHH...

This "rule enforcement" makes it easier to be LESS safe by making it easier and less confusing to keep a stock seat. The thing I'm missing here is how Solo class TT cars could be subject to Road Racing Rules.

[Fusion Works]

Here is my argument.

1) The mounting is solid as a rock.
2)it fits the car
3)it (the seat mounting)was engineered to and was tested to withstand and meet federal crash standards
4)all of the harnesses that secure me while i am in this seat are secured to other structures in the car . The seat is being sat in . That is the only thing the seat serves as .The shoulder harness is on the rollbar, the lap belts are on the floor pan, the sub belt is also secured to the floorpan.

I fail to see a safety issue here except that I changed the seat at all!! This would be a totally differant situation if the belts were bolted to the seat. Show me the problem. I see the rule and I understand the assertion that I need to have a backbrace based on the language in that rule....but show me that rules context in this particular situation.

I get this, but America is run by lawyers. If they (SCCA) start allowing every tech inspector around the country to set their own standards, the lawyers will come after every single one of them and SCCA, and the car manufacture, etc. SCCA believes there is LESS liability for the individual volunteer members to have a standard. If that standard isn't adhered to by the individuals racers, then it sort of limits the liability.

There are two different schools of thought on the whole seat back brace issue. FIA doesn't believe they are necessary with a properly design seat. SFI does. Since SCCA is heavily influenced by SFI (see the harness expiration dates), they tend to write the standards based on SFIs philosophy. There is a bunch of research that shows a seat back restraint will make your race car safer.

Some info here:

http://www.newtonlab.eu/en/FiaSfiCertifications.htm

http://www.reliableplant.com/Read/5288/new-nascar-vehicle-influenced-by-gm-safety-research-

Its your ass in the car, all the lawyers in the world don't have a more vested interest in keeping you safe than you do. I would rather you be around to keep racing. I still need a chance to beat you.

[zukitek]

K fine ...i will remove the seat ...weld the sliders so they are not sliders anymore . Good??? My Consigliere says Im good LOL

But for serious conversation...if the seat is to be mounted directly to the car ...what exactly does that mean? If I use 3 inch spacers to raise the seat then how is that directly to the car? If I have to spacer the seat 5 inches off the floor pan cause Im a short bastard ....does that make it illegal? I think the language is ambiguous enough to tilt in either direction in tech.....were my spacers homologated? Were my bolts nuts and washers measured for case hardness? was the thickness of the sheetmetal measured to make sure it was able to withstand a headon crash with a concrete wall at 77MPH ? Come on. I am a regional tech . I have done some time there in tech and seen things I wouldnt stand next to much less step into. This is not that .

[JohnW8]

Is a seat swap possible. Factory seat for daily driver purposes and a solid mount race bucket for TT use. Solid Mount means no back brace required. Possible?

[zukitek]

John anything is possible my friend.Define "Solid Mount". I could swap the motor if I wanted to ......but just how far do we need to go to please the rules ? We are doing just short of grabbing a 38 and slapping one shell into the thing and spinning the load and pulling the trigger . Any dumb idiot that thinks there is a safety factor to this is just that . The attraction is that its fun and its fast and lastly...its effing dangerous!!!!!

I will obviously do what I have to do to have fun ...which is drive fast at the risk of being killed while doing it because that is what racing is . Someone just needs to be very specific in how I should spend my 8 hour day of fabrication so that I dont spend another one next year or 3 months from now because another tech inspector has a differance of opinion .

Do you see where I have a problem?

[Fusion Works]

Ricky, how old is your seat?

[zukitek]

the seat is dated march of 2008.

[Fusion Works]

Well this side of the discussion is kinda moot now, just build a back brace and keep it the way it is with the sliders.

[JohnW8]

Define "Solid Mount".

Solid mount, non slider with the seat bolted to the bracket.
But according to the rules even this would need a back brace. I'm trying to give you options for little money and still be able to have the sliders for the daily driver duty. 4 bolts and a back brace to make the swap and you should make all tech inspectors happy.

[Fusion Works]

Just use a normal back brace and disconnect it for street use. That is what I used to do with my aluminum seat.

If your seat does not comply with FIA standards, then it has to have a back brace. That is a safe way to look at the rules. You won't get hassled for this approach. Remember for the most part the tech officials you will meet at a TT event will be road race tech inspectors so their experience with the road race rules will temper all of their decisions. You don't really see that many autox tech inspectors much less at anything outside of a parking lot.

[JohnW8]

Adding a back brace to a slider mounted seat seems to be the illusion of safety. The seat back brace is supposed to tie the seat to the cage so when the cage moves in an impact the seat goes with it theoretically keeping the belts tight and the driver from being like the bb
in a rattlecan? If it's still on sliders, don't the sliders still have the potential to slip/strip/tear/schmoosh/mangle? To me the ONLY safe way for a seat to work is to build the cage to carry the seat, but these are AX cars running TT and a cage would kill the streetability of a car. If you add a seat back brace to a seat not designed for it, you are, in my opinion, making it a more dangerous seat in pursuit of a safety solution.

I think the worse option for track days are factory seats. They definitely aren't designed for the lateral loading. The soft cushions allow your belts to fluctuate between tight and loose as you hit bumps on track.

Hence the thought of a swappable seat for a dual purpose car.


I hope you don't mind some theorizing. There's not much conversation on this forum anymore.