licensing fees for TT

[zukitek]

OK guys ...some of this I will preface so you get the gist and the reason I am taking issue.

So you wanna go try TT.... Here is what you do . You go spend $350-$650 on a roll bar depending on how much of it you can do yourself....then depending on what class you are preparing your car for ...you spend $175-$600 on harness and seat ....then another $100-$300 on fire extinguisher system also based on the class prep.....then you gotta prep yourself ...suit (economy)$350....SA hat (economy) $200.....gloves $35......shoes $75.......nomex socks and balaclava $50+.......if you dont want a windownet (streetcar/DD)then you gotta have arm restraints in a TIN ROOF CAR (WHY) $30-$45.....and the list goes on and on and on . Then you gotta get your car logbooked. Then once you have done your novice stuff you gotta apply for a full license which requires a full physical , and in my case also an eye exam since I have 1 partially blind eye since birth $50-$150. Then you gotta go back and forth through email correspondance (if you are lucky) for weeks documenting in detail when and why you had a medical procedure no matter if it was 25+ years ago (who keeps records that long) .Then you gotta get an annual tech each and every year and (you might...I did )have a tech guy tell you that you gotta get a backbrace on a FIA seat based on a technicality (car has been ran this way for 3 years without one ) before you can run again in TT. Then if you are over 40 you have to have a physical every 5 years at a minimum then the older you get the smaller that minimum gets.

I have told you all of these things only to highlight this.....SCCA will require a $35 licensing fee each and every year _on top _of your membership and region dues and you gotta fill out a seperate form each and every year ...regardless of how many or how few events you participate in per year in TT. I do not feel this is fair . I feel that there should be a reasonable minimum event participation level that you can meet or exceed that will maintain this license year to year to be fair . I feel this should be a percentage based on the events offered in that drivers division that require a full TT license .

What do u think? I myself ...untill SCCA changes their mind ...will be returning to PDX and HPDE to get my track day fix, because man....the big differance here is timing of the laps . I can do that with my cell phone .....for all the prep of slipping on some jeans , a long sleeved shirt, a M rated hat , and a street legal car . I show up ...I drive fast...same passing rules ....same fun .

The regions put on these events , the regions make these events what the drivers come to, the regions have everything to lose by what national does or does not do to support them, national gets sanction and insurance fees for every entry at the event . Why does national feel justified in charging licensing fees arbitrarily to any and all each and every year no matter what ?

This needs to change . TT driver retention will never improve as long as crap like this is in place . Guys and gals will come to the same realization as I have and they will make the same decision I have in most cases. The last straw on the camels back comes to mind and this is mine . Love TT, but, ultimately as it stands is not worth the price.

[rodhx]

Playing devil's advocate Ricky, so be patient with me

From here it sounds like you're hanging up your TT license due to the hassle of dealing with your particular health issue and a $35 renewal fee. I get that it's a pain, and that the fee could be less or non-existent, but I don't understand the driver retention angle.

For your particular situation, you already have the license and all the stuff in your second paragraph, with the exception of the back brace that may or may not actually be required for TT regardless of the flak you got at tech. So no additional costs for you. Suits, arm restraints, nomex, shoes (which only have to be cheap leather hightops, not "driving shoes") do not expire so no recurring costs there. The biggest ticket safety item that will expire is your helmet, but if you purchase wisely the helmet will last 10-15 years, or until you just can't bear to wear the stinky ol' thing anymore. Belts are good for either 5 or 10 years, so again choose wisely when buying and that becomes just a few bucks/year. Basically..you have all the expensive safety stuff covered, and probably covered for a while unless your helmet/belts are nearing expiration.

The necessary equipment list doesn't go on-and-on. For most of us (new TT drivers) you got all the requirements in your list, and several of those can be bought cheaper/used. The only thing I see to add is transponder rentals.

When I got my physical my doc took care of the basic eye exam...no cost involved.

Yes, there are costs involved in setting up a car and yourself for TT. Not only do I get that but I just paid it myself last year. Most of that cost is a one time expense, and the recurring part is not very much when spread over the useful life of the equipment. I get that SCCA TT is essentially "PDX with a transponder" due to the passing rules. Sure you can time yourself at a PDX/DE... been there done that. But if you want to actually compete then TT it is.

Since so much of the TT specific costs are up-front one time only items, I just can't see where the annualized costs, including license fee, are a significant burden for driver retention. For the things you mention, I can't buy a tire for the total TT-specific annual cost items.

I hope you reconsider. We'll miss you at the TT events...even if most of us can't catch you

[JohnW8]

Ricky, Road racing is set up the same way. I have to pay an $85 (I think) per year license fee, fill out a racing license application and do a physical every 2 years. I raced 2 weekends last year and still have to go through the annual hassle, whether I've done 10 race weekends or 1. I like the idea of maintaining a minimum number of events per year to keep a license current without having to pay an annual fee. I also think vehicle inspections should be based on the number of races you've done rather than the calendar. (ex: every 10 races get an inspection). The push to get more people to PDX has created a situation that really makes the need for all the racecar trappings seem unnecessary, well, until you're upside down and on fire. That roll bar and firesuit and extinguisher might be nice things to have in that situation. Putting a racecar on track is expensive, as is the safety equipment but I believe the SCCA could do some restructuring on the fees to make it less expensive for both new members as well as the rest of us.

The big stink a while back was level 2 " Club Trials". You could wear PDX gear and still get timed laps. Sounds perfect! Until a novice driver with 500hp more than they can handle is ripping around on track in the same group as TT drivers. We are protected, extensively, and he is not, in a car that could kill him. Some regions preferred them as they were great for introducing folks to SCCA but the safety factor was always a problem. How stupid would you feel dressed up like Johnny Racecardriver piddling along at 10/10th in your 80 hp HP MG and some kid in Dad's Viper blows past you with 500hp wearing a t-shirt. Doesn't seem right at all.

[e30Racer]

I wonder what the fees are used for by SCCA?

[zukitek]

As far as the seat goes . A back brace is going to be no laughing matter because its a tube frame seat and was not really built to use a backbrace with it . Can I do it ...yeah .....don't feel I need it though...that's my gripe with that. Way too many hoops to jump through and you (at least I do) feel like you are getting nickel and dimed everytime you turn around . I enjoy TT but my membership renews every april, so that means I got the membership and my TT license and my TGPR entry all coming out right at the tax deadline and its a pisser for me to come up with sometimes and I did not realize it was going to cost $35 each year to maintain the license when I went through all that last year . Ill probably suck it up and get over it but for now ima biche'boutit..lol

[DelanieC]

The new, simplified rules look pretty cut-and-dry on the seats.

"SEATS: It is highly recommended that the driver’s seat be replaced with a one‐piece bucket type
race seat and shall include an upper brace if non‐FIA homologated."

I noticed someone else catching some flack about a seat as well. Am I missing something here?

[chuck schultz]

I understand what everybody's saying, here, but all of the rules, such as the seat brace and medical info, are based on the safety notion that, once you start timing a group of drivers, driver resolve, speeds, and incidents go up.

These things aren't required for PDX because it's probably still technically illegal to time your laps, or to have someone time them, at a PDX. I'd look it up, but I don't have time, right now.

The license fee might be enough to cover the cost of administering the license (all of those phone calls, record keeping, etc.)

What it boils down to is that even cheap racin' ain't really cheap. That, and the fact that I'm not likely to ever be competitive, at this point, are why I'm sticking with track days.

[zukitek]

The new, simplified rules look pretty cut-and-dry on the seats.

"SEATS: It is highly recommended that the driver’s seat be replaced with a one‐piece bucket type
race seat and shall include an upper brace if non‐FIA homologated."

I noticed someone else catching some flack about a seat as well. Am I missing something here?

The contention that Rich Crowell made in my case was that since I mounted my seat on sliding mounts (stock OEM to the car) that this requires me to use a back brace. The mounting is very solid . In fact Ive seen much sketchier mounting schemes than mine when mounting them directly to the floor pan .

[hondamaint]

Yeah he tried to do the same to us about the sliders except we have Sparco sliders.
Funny thing is you can run a car in Continental Tire series and Pirelli (SCCA)WC with sliders but the local inspector frowns on them.
I hate it but this "my opinion makes the rules " is hurting the SCCA. Pirelli WC is killing themselves to make it easy to race. Maybe it needs to trickle down to the local level some.

[zukitek]

I don't mean this post to become about Rich or tech in particular because Rich is a volunteer , i respect his opinions , and I appreciate his service to the club as I would want anyone to if I were the tech inspector......it is just one thorn in my side out of many . All I wanna do is go out there and run my car and be as safe as one lunatic on a racetrack can be while doing it but you know its dangerous by nature and you cant circumvent each and every risk . I have not figured out how Im going to handle the seat . I mounted it on sliders because I really was unsure where I wanted it and I didnt see any reason to reinvent the wheel so since the sliders did go through federal crash testing and such ...I feel that is good enough. SU began as SM...an autox class ...thats how I prepped the car ....thats how its still prepped ...thats how Rich himself logbooked it ....thats how Id like to keep it . Simple as that . I dont feel that is unreasonable . This is still a street car . I drive it 250+miles a week.

[farrout]

Just took a quick look at NASA for a comparison. Basic membership is $45, TT license is $10 and Competition License is $85. NASA changed their medicals to match SCCA.

SCCA: Basic Membership is $65 plus Region Dues ($10 for TVR) , TT is $35, Competition license is $95 or $165 (2 yrs) or $235 (3 yrs)

SCCA Medical:
15-39 years of age every five (5) years
40-49 years of age every three (3) years
50-69 years of age every two (2) years
70 years of age and older every year

Entry Fees for NASA TT at Road Atlanta in August are a sliding scale based on calendar months in advance but they range from $400 - $700. Our RA TT Fee was ~$2xx. Even our TT fees for Barber ( a more expensive track) are only $325.

Go check out the costs of the HPDEs and you may see that they cost more than SCCA charges.

The new TTR show belts as unlimited age (certainly the belts have to be in good condition).

The basic travel and sustainment costs are the same for TT or PDX/HPDE.

Safety equipment is based on the premise that you will have an accident and thus need it. I did one HPDE in the late 90's and promptly put a roll bar and harnesses in my car. WHY? Because my arse and family were worth more than the cost of the safety gear.

Simply put, track time costs some money. The money you put into your car, the basic weekend costs, and the sustainment costs. Actual license fees are the least of the costs.


What is the cheapest way to get track time? Become a HPDE Instructor. Most groups either give instructors free track time or a reduced cost.

[farrout]

Ricky - Thanx for prompting me. I have started something at the TTAC level to set-up a 2 year and 3 year TT license program at a discount similar to what the Road Racers get.

[rodhx]

Ricky - Thanx for prompting me. I have started something at the TTAC level to set-up a 2 year and 3 year TT license program at a discount similar to what the Road Racers get.

cool....thanks Craig. good luck!

now if we can also get some traction on W8's suggestion of an option for an "annual" inspection that's good for a certain number of events rather than 12 months...

[zukitek]

Thank you so much Craig. I really appreciate your effort whatever the outcome . It would be huge if all that came out of this is that we did not have to deal with it each and every year. I think the option to do it yearly should remain but myself Id like to pay it forward at a discounted rate and be done with it for a while rather than have to deal with it annually.

[Fusion Works]

From The April GCR

9.3.41. SEATS
The driver’s seat shall be a one-piece bucket-type seat and shall be securely
mounted. The back of the seat shall be firmly attached to the
main roll hoop, or its cross bracing, so as to provide aft and lateral support.
Seats that have been homologated to and mounted in accordance
with FIA standard 8855-1999, or seats that have been certified to FIA.
Standard.8862-2009 or higher need not have the seat back attached to
the roll structure. Seats with a back not attached to the main roll hoop
or its cross bracing may be mounted on runners only if they were part
of the FIA homologated seats assembly specified in an FIA homologated
race car. The homologation labels must be visible. Seat supports shall be
of the type listed on FIA technical list No.12 or No. 40 (lateral, bottom,
etc). Passenger seat back–if a folding seat, it shall be securely bolted or
strapped in place.
Mounting structures for racing seats may attach to the floor, cage and or
center tunnel. Seat mounting points forward of the main hoop, between
the center line of the car and the driver’s side door bar and rearward of
GCR - 106
9. Cars and Equipment
the front edge of the seat bottom are not considered cage attachment
points in classes with limitations on the number of attachments.

Just because your car has been operating out of compliance with the rules doesn't make it right.

I get that are cost associated with racing, Try doing drugs, because that is about as close as most of us can get to the high we get on track. I guarantee it will cost you more than regular racing.