NASA not so hot.

[dr_phatcity]

I was super excited to see Chuck and VroomGrrl in atlanta this past weekend. I was bummed to not see a 911 lined up in grid, but I did catch some great shots of a white escort screaming through turn 12.

I've seen some follow-up comments from Chuck and VroomGrrl on another post, but I thought I would start a thread here.

I have to echo some of Ricky's comments that as someone who paid $ to attend the DE, the money versus track time equation really didn't work out and it certainly seemed like the major focus of the weekend was the racing. While my sister and I were really, really happy with our in-car instructor, I watched a bunch of instructors stroll down five minutes into their student's session. It got a bit boring to hear them overhead "ANY AVAILABLE INSTRUCTOR TO GRID NOW!!!" The classroom instruction was fair at best.

In terms of the driving --- Road Atlanta was a blast to drive. I really enjoyed turn 12 and once I got past the "I can't see where I'm going.", I learned to ignore the big bad wall. In my run group, there was no significant problem with people bunching up. I did see some notable traffic in the other HPDE 1A/2A group. Lastly, perhaps the biggest concern was that they let a few people people continue to drive when they repeatedly made unsafe passing moves (multiple "WTF was that" comments from numerous instructors). NASA seemed underwhelmed by these events and per radio chatter I overheard didn't stick up for the course workers much either.

Overall, I think Vroomgrrl is correct -- it's probably not the best event to cut your teeth. They seem like an okay group of guys to race with, but maybe not the ideal choice for a novice HPDE event. If you've earned worker credits and want to drive, then its also a good event. Unfortunately, the BMWCCA and PCA events fill in hours, so often the NASA events are the only ones available. Perhaps most importantly, I must say that every HPDE I attend, the more I would REALLY like to see ALSCCA put on another event at Barber. I know that this has been discussed ad nauseaum in another thread, but we put on the best event by far.

So, thanks to all the ALSCCA people -- especially Chris Warren -- for making that last event happen.

I'd love to hear other people's thoughts

[Raznkane]

Hey Jamie, good to see you made it through the weekend. I have only done 1 NASA at Barber this year and it was a decent experience. But by far the best track day out of PBOC,NASA,CHIN AND SCCA during 08 was our ALSCCA day at TGPR in Oct. So I would agree on any ALSCCA day on any track as my first choice.

[EWaugh]

From a non-novice stnad NASA's not too bad, but as an instructor I hate it for my students. Their TT program kind of scares me too. I think SCCA needs to adopt a more open style of TT, similar to NASA, but with the safety equipment currently required by SCCA.

[chuck schultz]

My biggest problem was tire rub in the 5-6-7 area. I need to roll my rear fenders or get some real shocks and springs. I rolled 'em a bit so it was better, but not good enough.

I also need to look farther ahead and learn not to slam the throttle shut if I see something out of place. So far, I've spun in 6 at BMP and 12 (yeah, 12!) at RA in reaction to unexpected things in my view.

I was surprised, last year, to see only 7 HPDE sessions on the Barber schedule. Then I was shocked to see 6 at Road Atlanta, this time. They may be getting perilously close to losing a lot of DE customers with that schedule. I'm sure some have left for better perceived values.

The racing does burn quite a bit of time, so there is a limit to the number of sessions. Some will argue that, with only 3/4 the average track time, the entry fees should be 3/4, as well. The waiting could've been bad, but I did have more time to bleed brakes, etc., and the mix of cars in the races was pretty interesting.

I love running at Road Atlanta. I seem to pick up the rhythm better, there, than at BMP, although that may just be a product of more time on track, there, thanks to Atlanta Region's PDX program. I really look forward to the day when ALSCCA will have the fiduciary strength to start doing PDXes at Barber on an annual basis. Maybe, then, I'll start to feel more confident, here.

One other thing I learned - I could've saved enough buying less than 10 gallons of gas "downtown" to pay for a very good gas can - or two.

[chuck schultz]

I think SCCA needs to adopt a more open style of TT, similar to NASA, but with the safety equipment currently required by SCCA.

I think they're trying to do that, by allowing open practice laps for the last couple of years. It used to be all 3 laps and out, even for practice, IIRC.

[VroomGrrl]

Jamie - did I meet you? I can't keep everybody straight with real names, screen names, cars, car numbers, never mind faces - and faces in helmets! If your sister is Ginger, then I do remember meeting you....was that yall?

I was pretty surprised at the low # of DE sessions on the schedule, and I can see why folks might feel it wasn't the best value for DE. This was the least # of DE sessions I've seen at any of the NASA events I've worked. My guess is that as the last event of the year, they got backed up with getting all the competition points events in there - and each of them has practice and qualifying. Plus the mixed-group "Toy Run" in the middle of Sunday. That 73 car grid was a HOOT!

When I saw that jam-packed schedule in 20 minute increments solid for both days, I figured it would turn into a clusterf*** at some point. Indeed, when there was any kind of off-track incident, it seemed to burn up the rest of that session - easy to do in 20 minute sessions! But with so few DE sessions to begin with, I can see how that could lead to some disappointment.

All that said, I am not dissing my NASA-SE friends! In fact, I'm totally looking forward to gettint out and driving with them sometime next year. This NASA club is fairly new, and they have built a good following by putting on events that are generally excellent - fun, well organized, and safety-focused. The instructors involved in NASA-SE DE are a really great bunch of folks, many of them instruct in several clubs, and they are committed to providing quality instruction. There is always room for improvement - from the outside looking in, and as someone who has never driven with them, it looks to me like they might do a better job of looking after novices, and improving communication so that drivers and instructors are not running around in circles between paddock & grid trying to hook up to go out on track.

Speaking of which - I would like to personally thank the student who did not show up for their DE3/4 session on Saturday, because your instructor was free to take me for a blistering, awesome ride in a gorgeous 911!

And speaking of 911s - I saw three there, David Danhof's #46 white 1995, Patrick Dowd's black #02 2005, and Keith Andrews' #82 blue & white 1982 911sc. I got to ride in the first two. Wheeeeeeeeee!

Now - did you say pictures? WHERE ARE THEY? Mine are HERE.

[farrout]

Couple of things:

You can join BMWCCA no matter what kind of car you have. THen you get the advance notice of their HPDEs and an early opportunity to register. They loved my 93 RX7.

PCA is another matter. Must have a Porsche VIN to join.

Mazda Sportscar Club of Washington (Mazda Driver's Assoc) puts on some pretty good events at VIR.

We have been trying to introduce a new TT format into SEDIV TT for years. All we have gotten is lip service from the SEDIV TT Hirarchy. The multiple cars on track for a 20 minute session has been used in other SCCA Regions as well as NASA.

[BoostedFD]

We have been trying to introduce a new TT format into SEDIV TT for years. All we have gotten is lip service from the SEDIV TT Hirarchy. The multiple cars on track for a 20 minute session has been used in other SCCA Regions as well as NASA.

Believe it or not this was a topic at the last BoD meeting. IMO unless they start allowing a format more like NASA then TT is going to die. I think they should just keep the safety requirements(unlike NASA) and run large groups with passing instead of 3 on track.

[FVee90]

To Boost and Farrout
Could you please inform me on they qty and the experience at each corner station used at the last TGPR TT?
Again we can post and talk but do some work instead of letting another club dictate what to do. Plus while you are checking on the qualifications of the workers then check to see if we can even do that at the price/rental quoted by Upchurch.
Don't get me wrong I like track time but if the need arose does the know how of the worker = the greater amount of cars on the track? Keep in mind we didn't have the open practice (untimed offically) just a few years ago now we do.
No one has been killed in SEDIV Solo 1 and TT since I have been in (1989) plus I don't know of any being killed since '77.
Just check off a few things.....eh?

[JohnW8]

To Boost and Farrout
Could you please inform me on they qty and the experience at each corner station used at the last TGPR TT?
Again we can post and talk but do some work instead of letting another club dictate what to do. Plus while you are checking on the qualifications of the workers then check to see if we can even do that at the price/rental quoted by Upchurch.
Don't get me wrong I like track time but if the need arose does the know how of the worker = the greater amount of cars on the track? Keep in mind we didn't have the open practice (untimed offically) just a few years ago now we do.
No one has been killed in SEDIV Solo 1 and TT since I have been in (1989) plus I don't know of any being killed since '77.
Just check off a few things.....eh?

Our worker base for TT events is small and for the most part, untrained, non-professional, volunteer corner workers, and I truly appreciate and love each and every one of them. Plus, at the last TT event we had the minimum number of workers to cover the stations.
Open passing time trials events, ala NASA, will not fly at TGPR. Bigger tracks, maybe, but Mr. Upchurch isn't comfortable with it since the track isn't big enough for it. We have SCCA rules to contend with but the Upchurchs have their own ruleset. Regardless, open passing can lead to contact and Time Trialers are a group that doesn't really want contact as part of their motorsports weekend. I became a time trialer to work on my driving lines and not worry about whether Evan is going to be running me off the track going into turn 1. Someone said once TT is the Unending search for the perfect line. There is still a niche for Time Trials. There are older cars that have been shuffled out of the RR ranks but still fast as hell, and Solo classes for folks who want to try some different competition without having to buy a race specific vehicle. We don't need to emulate NASA, we (SCCA) just need to allow transponders in a PDX and we would have a NASA-esque Time Trial program.

[chuck schultz]

Our worker base for TT events is small and for the most part, untrained, non-professional, volunteer corner workers, and I truly appreciate and love each and every one of them. Plus, at the last TT event we had the minimum number of workers to cover the stations.

The training should be better, if we do the Flag & Fire school before the season, next year. This year, about half of the workers at the TT were solid flaggers with enough experience to be very sharp with their flags and communications. The others picked it up very quickly. It was a great group, but it was a near-minimum staff.

we (SCCA) just need to allow transponders in a PDX and we would have a NASA-esque Time Trial program.

I don't think we need to introduce that to the PDX program. It's entirely contrary to the intent of Level 1 events. The intensity really steps up when you have an official timer running, as Fred can probably attest.

Now, if you want to chair a Level 2 Club Trials event, I believe transponders would be legal for that kind of event, but with PDX-level safety requirements. Unfortunately, the safety allowances probably make TGPR inappropriate for a CT, which generally must run on a flat, open expanse of asphalt.

[Welacey]

I really appreciate the safety aspect of the SCCA. And everybody knows I'm crazzzyyyy.

[EWaugh]

I was looking forward to T6 at Barbers John.

I would not run TT's with open passing. My idea retains the point. That way the passee still controls when he is getting passed. If John doesn't want me passing in T1, he should run his line around T1 and wait until the straight. If someone violates the passing rules tell them they're done for the weekend and if they do it again at another event take their incense.

[chuck schultz]

take their incense.

Sounds like a California rule.

[EWaugh]

...I don't use spellcheck and I get it wrong, I use spellcheck I get it wrong. grrr