NASA not so hot.

[Erv]

rofl

[BoostedFD]

To Boost and Farrout
Could you please inform me on they qty and the experience at each corner station used at the last TGPR TT?
Again we can post and talk but do some work instead of letting another club dictate what to do. Plus while you are checking on the qualifications of the workers then check to see if we can even do that at the price/rental quoted by Upchurch.
Don't get me wrong I like track time but if the need arose does the know how of the worker = the greater amount of cars on the track? Keep in mind we didn't have the open practice (untimed offically) just a few years ago now we do.
No one has been killed in SEDIV Solo 1 and TT since I have been in (1989) plus I don't know of any being killed since '77.
Just check off a few things.....eh?

The point is you will never get to run a big track, Road ATL, Barbers, etc. with the current rules of TT. You will never get the amount of people to be able to pay for it and you can't combine it with an PDA which would be wonderful. It takes to long to run an event with any track time unless you do test sessions all day. There is nothing efficient about 3 cars on track with no passing allowed at all. I'm not saying open passing is the way to go, but allowing more than 3 on a track is a need.

As for corner workers you can always always use someone else's workers, if the funds are there to pay for it, such as what we did at the Friday Test'n Tune at the race last Labor day.

[JohnW8]

I think 3 on the track at a time for timed runs might be a TGPR rule.
I could be wrong.
I often am.

In reference to the transponders at a PDX, the advanced level is pretty much run at 10/10ths.
Why not time them? Several folks at that level already have data acquisition and time themselves anyway.

For that matter a separate group just made up of TTers at a PDX would work, as far as I can tell.

I don't know the answer on being able to draw a crowd big enough to afford a bigger track, rule changes would help but I'm afraid it would potentially run off the Time Trial regulars.

[chuck schultz]

I think 3 on the track at a time for timed runs might be a TGPR rule.

If it's not a track rule, it's about the limit, anyway, because of the length of the track. You might be able to safely run 6 on a ~2.5 mile track.

In reference to the transponders at a PDX, the advanced level is pretty much run at 10/10ths.

Some are running that hard at times, but with restrictive passing rules.

Why not time them? Several folks at that level already have data acquisition and time themselves anyway.

Official timing rightly bumps you to level 2 events or higher. PDX is not intended to be competition.

For that matter a separate group just made up of TTers at a PDX would work, as far as I can tell.

On more than one occasion, I've proposed a second sanction at the same venue on the same weekend so TT folks can at least run their real race cars. I believe you could make a good weekend of it if the TT folks are willing to pay PDX-level entry fees and get about the same amount of track time as a fifth group for their separate, but concurrent, event. On the second day, the schedule would have to be all TT for a long-enough period of time for everybody to get in a set of pods or two in between PDX sessions.PDXers could take a long lunch or leave early, or something like that.

I don't know the answer on being able to draw a crowd big enough to afford a bigger track

It definitely can't be done as a stand-alone event at a major track. Typically, a good turnout at a SEDiv TT is ~50 drivers. Let's see, $40,000/50=$800 entry fees. . .

[farrout]

I am not advocating open passing during a TT. If that is what you want to do, we call it road racing. That said, I do advocate passing only on the straights between well marked beginning and closing markers.

I also advocate using the road race passing rules where the car being passed stays on its racing line and the overtaking car has to go around.

TGPR is too narrow a track for open passing. However it is adequate for passing on the 2-3 straights like we do in the TT practice sessions. Since TGPR is a short track, we do have to limit the number of cars on track at a time.

TTs at other tracks, Roebling or NAshville, do have the room for more cars on track at a time with the limited passing format.

ANy discussions of any TT format have to start with having the proper corner workers and safety considerations.

I do believe it is time for SEDIV to consider revamping its TT format. We have been unable to have any serious discussions about doing that.

[farrout]

I recall that the 3 on track rule began when we had the old timing system which had to have a 5 second gap between cars to time the following car. THe use of the transponders has eliminated that concern.

Since there is a no passing rule, there needs to be sufficient room between the cars in a pod to keep one from catching another. Some tracks can support more than 3 cars at a time. TGPR cannot. Either way, it takes careful planned groupings of cars into a pod to keep the time differentials to a minimum. It also takes a starter with enough experience to stretch out or group up cars as the times dictate.(some do that better than others).

[JohnW8]

I just briefly scanned through the 2008 TT rule book and the Level 2 Club Trials and the Level 3 Club Trials sound like the same event with the exception of safety equipment. It's has similar safety requirements as a pdx but the event is timed. Perhaps we need to look into one of these events as a way to boost participation.

[EWaugh]

I believe club trials is one car on track at a time. I asked that during the board meeting too.

[JohnW8]

I believe club trials is one car on track at a time. I asked that during the board meeting too.

I couldn't find anything about that in the rule book.

[dr_phatcity]

Yeah, Yeah

Keep Digging guys .... If ALSCCA can figure out how to make this happen, it would be absolutely awesome!!!!

John "Show me the Rule" W8

[JohnW8]

The way I read it the Level 2 Club Trials is just like a mix of a Level 1 PDX and Level 3 Track Trials.

Level 2 has ride along instructors like a PDX with additional safety requirements over a PDX

You practice in group sessions with instructors in the car then you do timed competition runs without the instructor.

Passing is restricted to certain areas, so I assume that would include for timed runs.

Competitors are required to have additional license and safety gear over a PDX.
(One layer of Nomex and a roll bar required for all competitors as well as a TT participation log book, (i.e TT novice license), SCCA membership)

[zukitek]

The ALSCCA BoD have been having ongoing discussions specifically about how to make a TT and PDX happen, in conjunction, at Barbers.This is what we have researched so far ....There is no car on course rule (other than the car per mile rule in the GCR ....10 per mile I think it is ???)that we can locate nor is there any rule forbidding point by passing on the straights during competition runs i.e. transponder sessions for outright times .

"Open Passing " is a broad term that has been being used and I believe that all using it are talking about point by passing on the straights .That _is_ what we already do in level 1 PDX with no incidents already.The _only_ thing that seperates that from what is being discussed about the TT format is the addition of timing.It is not that we are wanting to time a PDX...we want to adopt a format that is already proven itself to be pretty dang good in PDX to improve turnouts and flexibility in TT when approaching larger venues such as Barbers and RA .This would allow _us_ to be able to offer TT and PDX at Barber. We have already come to the harsh reality that 1 or the other is not possible without the imminent assurance of failing financially .Combining the 2 levels ,2 seperate event sanctions ,run on the same weekend is the only way there is a fighting chance of us doing it at Barbers.

The downside in my mind is this ...if we have a TT at Barbers and a TT at TGPR this will likely relegate TGPR unattended by a large number .That to me is not great .I would love to dream of a world where folks would run both but I think a large number of folks would lay out of TGPR and only run the Barbers date .I dont know how I feel about that because both places have their strong and weak points in my eyes.

If done correctly and carefully this can be done ,safely and successfully at a track such as Barber but not at TGPR ,but then again ,the format we presently use at TGPR works well by large IMO.We can get the workers.My glass is "half full"as apposed to the alternative .

BTW...this thread is soooooooooo jacked .It may need to go ahead and be moved to TT on the forums

RR

[chuck schultz]

This is what the 2008 rules say about some of this:

3.2.3. Driver Requirements and Responsibilities

2. Present a TT Participation Log Book at events. For first time students,
Participation Log Books will be available at registration. All students must present the Log at registration and it will be returned with any notations at the end of the event. Students with Time Trials
Competition Licenses or higher are not required to present Logs for notation so long as their SCCA membership and License are current.

10.19. REQUIRED DRIVER SAFETY EQUIPMENT
Driver’s Safety Equipment requirements are specific to the category of Time Trials event.
For Club Trials Events (Level 2):
All participants shall wear long sleeves and pants (at least 100% cotton material recommended) and shoes which fully cover the foot at least to the ankle while on course. Helmets which meet Snell M-95 requirements or higher are required.

Please note that for Club Trials (Level 2) events, the following guidelines apply for restraint systems - All cars that are required to install roll bars must comply with Section 12 of the TTR. Cars that choose to install a roll bar may use stock restraint systems, provided that the roll bar does not interfere with the function of the system in any way. For these cars, there is no age limit on harnesses so long as the harnesses are in visibly and physically good condition (i.e. no fraying, damage, or excessive discoloration).
Cars that do not incorporate roll bars or cages may use the stock restraint system in its entirety, or use a restraint system that complies with TTR Section 12.

11.2. CLUB TRIALS (LEVEL 2)
Roll bars or cages will NOT be required in those cars prepared to Stock, Street Prepared, Street Touring or Street Mod specifications as found in the Solo rules, except for Convertibles and Targa* top automobiles. These cars must have either a roll bar meeting Section 11 of the TTR or a factory hard top using the factory mounting hardware and mounting points. Targa top (and T-top) automobiles may forgo the roll bar requirement
under the condition that the Targa bar meets the height requirement set forth in 11.2.1.B. Any convertible that runs with a TTR legal roll bar must do so with convertible top down and in the latched position.Any car modified beyond any part of those rules must be equipped with a roll bar minimum. Any car modified beyond any part of those rules must be equipped with a roll bar minimum. This includes cars prepared to the Solo classes of Prepared or Modified. Any car built to a GCR class MAY NOT interchange preparation rules to circumvent the roll bar requirement (for example, even though an IT car may run in the Street Prepared Classes at a Solo event, it does not qualify for the roll bar exception in this case, and must have a roll bar to run any Time Trials event.
*Targa top, targa for short, is a semi-convertible car body style with a removable roof section and a full width fixed B-pillar and roof section. The rear window can be fixed or removable.

[EWaugh]

If we ran Barber's later in the season people would run both. Those that are running for points would run both anyway.

[farrout]

If you are truly a TT competitor, then you will run both events plus Nashville. If you are a local guy who wants track time within a short distance of home, then you will probably run Barber, TGPR and Nashville. Add Crow Mtn to that and you get 4 TT points events locally.

If you try to make the TT a one day event at Barber, you will probably lose the out of town guys who may not want to travel that far for only a one day event.

PDX's do not allow the "wings and things" cars which is a real downer for some of the TT guys.

I seem to recall that the GCR rule for Road Racing is 25 cars per mile plus a 10% fudge factor.

Allowing passing on the straights with a significant number of TT cars on track is an issue with the SEDIV TT folks. The biggest issue is the ability to provide sufficient numbers of trained corner workers for the track.