Will there be Barber PDX Dec 6th?

[zukitek]

The way I understand it, we can't get the track for 1 day. For 2 days it would cost $34000 (using Ricky's numbers) and with the entry fee of $400 we'd need 85 entrants to break even.

Hey, what about a group buy/preorder sort of thing... everyone interested buys in at $400 and when we get 85 people signed up for a 2 day Barber track day, we schedule it.

Just a thought to see how many would be interested in it.

Any board members online?

That isnt an entirely bad idea to have a prepay for a PDX .it would just have a lag time .If we advertise it and take prepayments starting in the summer /fall then come December we get on the schedule for the spring of the following calendar year .It would just have to be in the supps that there can be absolutely no cancellations /refunds come hell or highwater once the date is set.

Difficult high track rental calls for creative solutions.It obviously would rule out doing a barbers PDX for 09 but if it worked good we could do it every year and the lag would only be the initial first year.

The $400 figure I threw out was just a number from thin air .The usual rate for 2 days at Barbers is more like $450.1 days is more like $250.Hypothetically we run registration until the break even point and then we schedule a date then any subsequent registrations is just icing.If the break even or close to it isnt reached then we dont schedule and we issue refunds

What do you guys think?

RR

[chuck schultz]

The paid track day only (not racing, time trial, or instructor) entries at the event I'm running in next month at Road Atlanta total well over 100. At about $400 for 2 days, it should be profitable, even without the time trial and race entries. I believe the entry numbers were about the same when I ran with them at BMP.

One thing that would have to happen to get those kinds of numbers would be to advertise in a variety of media - GRM, SportsCar, direct mail to members and past participants, and online in the various forums, SCCA's national website, http://www.trackschedule.com/sched.html and maybe others.

As for racers, what I'm suggesting is a level 3 sanction in addition to level 1, and let the race cars run in one, separate group in the rotation the same weekend. Don't tell me the TT folks wouldn't like to set some lap records, even if it costs them $400 for the weekend. Maybe they could practice 3-4 times, then run their pods for a couple hours, some time Sunday.

[dr_phatcity]

Yesss!!!!!!!

The last PDX at Barber was the BEST event, period. There was so much driving time, I bonked.

Essentially every PDX I have signed up for has been very clear. When you register, you pay. If you cancel, you lose ... unless they happen to find a replacement.

If you stipulate very clearly that the event won't be run unless we get enough participants, then that seems quite fair. Besides, if people have forked over a couple of hundred bucks and we are close on numbers they will pull in other people. I can pretty much assure you two drivers.

The last SCCA PDX gave me two to three times the track time of other events that are way more expensive. I would love to see us try this event.

-Jamie

[FVee90]

Holy crap mon, a interesting discussion y'all are having. PDX's are an interesting phase of SCCA that is hard tro explain but the success of the events in some areas cannot be argued with. Combining with a Level 3 is a possible option but $400 for an entry fee would tend for me to put it towards the double SARRC event or a test day before a double SARRC at Barber. The hard core Level 3 TTer's would love to run at Barber but there would be a drop off in the numbers of entrants as the price got in the $400 range. The TGPR TT did very well this year with around 60 entrants (tops in SEDIV) while most other venues/hillclimbs at the $200 entry fee was 40 or less entrants.
Comparing apples to apples the Atlanta Region has over 1500 members to it's credit, with Alabama Region in the 220's, even throwing in nawth bamers (TVR) at 140 you can see the base that ATL has is already a great start for workers and entrants to make any event a success. The PDX's at Road Atlanta are a success because they have the workers AND the entrant base to make it a success.

[chuck schultz]

The best part of the success of the Atlanta PDXs is that they are actually recruiting new Club Racing volunteers with the program, which discounts the PDX price for folks who help out at the track. I know I really appreciate this sort of "thank you" from the club. ALSCCA and TVR have done similar things with free Solos, etc.

They are also unique because the track time is free (that is, already paid for, but not usable otherwise because of the quiet hour restrictions, there) and the corners are covered by Club Racers who do it to say "Thanks, workers."

Whenever there is a PDX scheduled, somebody invariably asks, "What about race cars?" The answer, by rule, is no, but the additional TT sanction could change it to yes. The PDXers would be paying the $400, so the level 3 folks should be willing to pay the same for using the same amount of track time.

BTW, if I paid $400, I'd expect about eight 20-minute sessions at a major venue (4 each day.) A lot more than that, like our last PDX at Barber, would be an anomaly. For instance, $100 gets you 2 sessions at an Atlanta Region PDX, if you don't qualify for the volunteer discount. Other clubs have similar prices at both tracks.

[zukitek]

Ricky,

I am primarily a lurker here & hope to be out giving solo a try with you guys in the spring. Thank you for the post, as I found it very interesting & enlightening regarding the PDx struggles.

Regarding who would want to spend $500 for a day at Barbers. The NASA event in June was almost $400 for 2 hours, 20 minutes of HPDE track time. This past weekend's PBOC event was $425 for 3.5 hours. Of course these are the schedule times and are never met, largely due to race group incidents.

Logistically it may be completely undoable, but $500 for a saturday with ~4hrs of track time per group looks pretty competitive to me. I realize that would mean 2 groups of 20 cars, each with 30 minute sessions, so anyone instructing and driving would have a very busy day...and the instructor issue by itself would probably kill that kind of schedule.

Another alternative may be a $400 day which includes 3 groups having 20 minute sessions. That is 2:40 per group, still requiring quick changes for instructors but I think it was 3 groups at TGPR. $400 is 50 cars, so the groups would be relatively small.

I'm just a rookie throwing some ideas around. I know there are logistical issues that make these two scenarios difficult, particularly regarding instructors. I have already been planning to spend about $400 on a Barber weekend next year and would find a cost competitive Saturday-only event very tempting. However, I may be alone in that.

I would settle for a saturday solo or two

Rod

THanks Rod,

Its obvious that you know what you're talking about .You have seen whats up.What is up is race tracks frown on renting single weekend days .Barbers has refused to rent the track to us on a weekend for 1 day...... PERIOD.That is the official stance as of now .There is no Sunday only rental ....there is no Saturday only rental.This is the make or break for us doing an openended (leap of faith)PDX as a standalone .Even if we advertise it to death(which we have on occasions)...we have never broken 45 entries at TGPR or Barbers for a PDX.

1)Point of post is this ...lets establish that 1 single day rental has been ruled out of the question ...not possible because Barber presently wont do it .

2)A 2 day open ended ,leap of faith PDX at Barber by us is just plain irresponsible.

3)Setup of a prepay ,undetermined ,2 day registration with a strict /no exception refund policy with an absolute point of no return .Once the break even entry number is met then the date is set and scheduled and the deposits are laid down with Barber.

4)As I said before,its not about ALSCCA making a profit on a PDX...its about ALSCCA providing a PDX for the membership without risking limited resources that operate ALSCCA.
Putting it in fairly PC terms ....losing your shorts is totally relative as to how big your shorts are .How big are our shorts ?How much can YOU afford to lose?Well I saw the treasurers report at the last club meeting,and while we are not in dire straits ,we are also in no position to risk losing 35% of our total operating capitol




Ricky-

[chuck schultz]

If this waits too long, everybody in the Region will be instructing for other clubs, and won't be paying to run with ALSCCA, anyway.

In '02, the BoD decided that Club Racing was important enough to take the risk to take the balance down to zero. They decided that providing the opportunity for our members was more important than having an annual banquet, which was probably our biggest expense prior to that time - over $3000?

If we can't yet afford to take the chance on a PDX, then we should have a second Club Race, by ALSCCA alone, in order to raise funds for the greater number of non-racing track rats in the Region who want to do it. In fact, after six years of Club Racing, I don't understand why we aren't running three races a year at Barber - two Regionals and a National.

By your numbers, 85 entries is the break even point. The last PDX at Barber was in December, after being rescheduled twice, with almost no publicity, and we made 45. almost all local. I've also heard at least one person, a current member of the BoD, argue that they won't travel for a 1-day event.

There is a way to do a 1-day event, too - Labor Day.

I'll be quiet now.

[zukitek]

Chuck ,those are all excellent points .The reason ALSCCA is not presently doing a club race on its own is the same reason ALSCCA isnt doing 3 per year .This could change .Altlanta region ,as Mark mentioned ,has such a large membership that they almost exclusively supplied all of the race specialtys when we _were_doing the races ourselves .

Our region needs members to pursue race specialtys and it also needs folks to become more involved with being race chairs .Quite frankly,the race chairs that put on the club races from 02-06 just plain burned out .With no one to take their places...the partnership with Atlanta region was the best viable alternative at the time to still remain a racing region at Barbers but reduce the burden to a point that was manageable tot eh few doing it for our region.

I know Im not telling you anything that you dont already know but I am simply putting it out there mainly to give others the info on the history of it .I totally agree that Labor day would be a 1 day opportunity for a PDX and I totally think it would be sucessful .I brought it up last year in a meeting but it wasnt supported due to the fact that we all ,after a large discussion,that at least for the first Labor day weekend race,we should not add something like that untill we get the 1st one (last year)under our wheels and see how well it was going to fit both regions.

I also have said to myself that we could and should do 2 or 3 races a year at Barbers.Maybe we will.That is largely dependant on more participation from our 200+membership.We have a strong core group of folks in our club ...we as a BoD in the past few years just needed to do more to attract these folks to become involved with the meetings,know more about what is going on in the club ,then I think they would have become more informed and feel more confident that they _could_ do more .

I hope to bring some changes in these areas but I will need lots of help .

BTW,I finally got hold of the right person with SEDIV.The incorrest PDX dates on the calendar for Dec08 and July09 have been removed from the schedule on the website.


Im writing alot of these things down on a to do list so all of the conversation and suggestions and even the constructive criticism is being taken note of .

Thanks,

Ricky-

[mpcavana]

Ricky,

Funny, on the SCCA site there is a link to the AL SCCA front page titled
12/06/2008Alabama Dec PDX

Seems like someone in Topeka is out of the loop.

[zukitek]

Thanks Mike .SEDIV may be corrected but all of the things that drew from it are not .ITs killing me .I got folks calling me on my cell phone wanting to know how to sign up for the PDX at Barbers on Dec 6th.Sharon assures me that its taken care of as far as the SEDIV schedule goes but I havent checked to make sure .


RR

[chuck schultz]

Probably a lot of folks look at the preliminary schedule as soon as it's out, and then forget to check after the January meeting. Then their calendar is wrong, and we can't correct that.

I like the idea some clubs are using - a public Google calendar, which you or other members of the BoD could update as needed. I have a couple clubs' calendars showing along with my personal, private Google calendar, in case I miss putting something in there.

The current 2008 calendar at http://www.SEDivracing.org shows the Dec 6 PDX lined out, to show that it's not happening, but that folks who thought it was there aren't crazy either.

However, if you go to the http://www.scca.com website, it's showing on the front page, still!