Will there be Barber PDX Dec 6th?

[igipop]

I saw a few Atlanta clubs that show it on their schedule but other than that no info...

Are there plans for the PDX this December like last year?

[chuck schultz]

The places that show it on the schedule are basing their info on a bad listing on the SCCA national website and/or the SEDiv racing site. Apparently, because we did one last year on that weekend, somebody thought that it would continue. Unfortunately, that was a one-time shot for that weekend, last year.

[zukitek]

Thanks Chuck.That is a transfer that was put on the SEDIV schedule for the exact reason chuck pointed out .I sent out a request for a retraction but it didnt happen .There is no PDX at Barbers this year in December.

Sorry for the confusion .

Ricky-

[EWaugh]

We are listed there for next year too, Don't be suprised if it doesn't happen then either.

[FVee90]

Don't worry gang I'll help RR get with the right person to have it taken off - no prob.

[igipop]

Thanks

Thanks for clarifying that guys. I am sorry we lost that spot, I thought that was the best time of year to do it. It seemed easier on my car and I was looking forward the next colder weather event

Are we kicked out or we just were not able to schedule it? Or maybe there is another day already scheduled that I am not seeing...

Igor

[JohnW8]

Not kicked out, we just had a great opportunity for a one day pdx that hasn't been available since. The cost on that track is very high and would need a lot of participation for a PDX to make it financially viable.

[zukitek]

Not kicked out, we just had a great opportunity for a one day pdx that hasn't been available since. The cost on that track is very high and would need a lot of participation for a PDX to make it financially viable.

That is correct.It costs $17,000 per day (normally) to rent Barbers by the time you rent the track ,pay for wreckers,pay for corner workers,pay for ambulance workers etc.Barbers declined to rent us the track this year for 1 day.They only would allow us to rent it for a 2 day weekend.The math is pretty discouraging.You figure what we had at last years Dec. 1 day PDX.40 drivers times $250.00.I dont know what the answer is to being able to do PDX at Barbers as a standalone .It doesnt seem possible.

The other alternative is to work a PDX into a race weekend at Barbers.It wouldnt be full day of track time .It may only be an hour.It would most likely have to be during the test day on friday.I asked John Place this past weekend about the possibility of being able to do it like they do at Road Atlanta on Sunday during quiet time .He was not optimistic that Mr Barber would go for it .

RR

[igipop]

That is correct.It costs $17,000 per day (normally) to rent Barbers The math is pretty discouraging.You figure what we had at last years Dec. 1 day PDX.40 drivers times $250.00.I dont know what the answer is to being able to do PDX at Barbers as a standalone .It doesnt seem possible.

I asked John Place this past weekend about the possibility of being able to do it like they do at Road Atlanta on Sunday during quiet time .He was not optimistic that Mr Barber would go for it

I could never figure out why there were not more folks there last year, but I did not complain as I ended up doing over 120 miles, which now I see may never happen again. That was like a full race distance and in my opinion 20 mins sessions every hour for 8 hrs a day is the best format. Even with low turn out I was sure SCCA broke even but I was wrong it seems. How do you make up the loss in that case? If we owe Mr. Barber it will not be easy to regain the trust and enjoy the luxury we had. No wonder he wouldn't go for letting us go during quiet time. If we could make it up by volunteering in the museum or the track I would not mind doing it.

Igor

[zukitek]

I could never figure out why there were not more folks there last year, but I did not complain as I ended up doing over 120 miles, which now I see may never happen again. That was like a full race distance and in my opinion 20 mins sessions every hour for 8 hrs a day is the best format. Even with low turn out I was sure SCCA broke even but I was wrong it seems. How do you make up the loss in that case? If we owe Mr. Barber it will not be easy to regain the trust and enjoy the luxury we had. No wonder he wouldn't go for letting us go during quiet time. If we could make it up by volunteering in the museum or the track I would not mind doing it.

Igor

Sorry ..I left out the fact that last year we had a unique deal in which we got the track for half the regular rate.Another club wanted the weekend we had in September so we traded them the weekend .....in exchange we were offered the december 1 day date for 6k.Yes we broke even on that day.We were not able to swing that this year .That is why we did the TGPR track day instead.We are in the process of negotiating TGPR for next year .

I wouldnt say that we wont do Barbers PDX...I just have to say that realistically it is difficult to risk losing so much of the clubs resources on a Barbers PDX when the same money can be used for so many other club activities.ALSCCA is not broke by any means but a low turnout on a 2 day Barbers PDX could easily change that .

Its not about making money ,its about not depleting the clubs bank account to the point that we are unable to put on events at all.I love going to Barbers .I hope we can work something out with Barbers but at this point they are unable to see their way clear to offer us a date that can allow us to do a PDX.

RR

[chuck schultz]

I've been mum about this for a long time, but maybe this is an appropriate time to say something publicly.

They worried in much the same way in '02, heading up to our first race in '03 at Barber, but the BoD at that time decided that going Club Racing was worth the monetary risk, so they could honestly say they tried to serve the membership.

Considering the population of track day fans vs. racers in the Region, the PDX should serve more members. According to an article in the latest issue of Grassroots Motorsports, NASA-Southeast has only been around since 2005, yet they have an exceptional turnout for their track days. Also, considering the refund policies at club races vs. track days, a PDX is less likely to go broke because of a weather event.

I don't know how much in advance the down payment must be made, but if there is enough time to cash checks from one event before the down payment is due on the next, ALSCCA should be able to do at least one PDX at Barber per year, possibly combined with a Track Trials sanction, to allow race car owners to play that weekend, too.

[zukitek]

I've been mum about this for a long time, but maybe this is an appropriate time to say something publicly.

They worried in much the same way in '02, heading up to our first race in '03 at Barber, but the BoD at that time decided that going Club Racing was worth the monetary risk, so they could honestly say they tried to serve the membership.

Considering the population of track day fans vs. racers in the Region, the PDX should serve more members. According to an article in the latest issue of Grassroots Motorsports, NASA-Southeast has only been around since 2005, yet they have an exceptional turnout for their track days. Also, considering the refund policies at club races vs. track days, a PDX is less likely to go broke because of a weather event.

I don't know how much in advance the down payment must be made, but if there is enough time to cash checks from one event before the down payment is due on the next, ALSCCA should be able to do at least one PDX at Barber per year, possibly combined with a Track Trials sanction, to allow race car owners to play that weekend, too.

Chuck,

I have absolutely all of the respect in the world for your opinions ...but with all due respect you are dead wrong on this one .The only clubs that dont lose their shorts at Barbers on HPDE are the clubs that connect HPDE with a race weekend .The only clubs that dont lose their shorts on RA are clubs that connect HPDE with a race weekend .The only clubs that dont lose their shorts at TGPR are clubs that connect HPDE to a race weekend .

Speed for Sale does HPDE at TGPR...they also always do an attached event whether it be a car show ,a dyno day ,a drag strip day etc.Not apposed to that but there again I dont know who would support it since most of the club has race cars ,they are not so interested in showing off their cars or having braggin rights for the most HP.

BMWCCA...always has race groups.

NASA always has race groups at RA and Barbers.

Chin has HPDE and while I havent done any of their events ....I dont know that they break even on Barber.

PBOC does spring and fall at Barbers but again always has race groups .

Audi ...has HPDE and while I have never done a Audi event ...I dont know that they break even on Barber .

It seems that we need to connect PDX/HPDE to race groups ,which is why I am pursuing doing a PDX attached to the 09 labor day weekend race at Barbers.The snags are as follows....Zoom motorsports (the track management for Barbers)is hesitant (if not totally apposed to commit) to a quiet time Sunday PDX....they will not offer any dates besides a 2 day weekend rental at the afforementioned rental rate of 12k per day plus xtras.By the time the tally is done its 17k per day give or take.

The only viable alternative I can see that will enable us to finacially and viably commit to doing a Barbers PDX would be on Friday of labor day weekend which would be the test day,or the monday following that labor day weekend .The risk of doing it on the Monday following that weekend woud be that some folks arent off of work,racers(viable instructors )are using that day as a travel day back home after racing for 3 days .The same could be said for the test day.....Racers will not want to share the track with HPDE folks on test day,SCCA safety regs does not allow level 1 TT cars on the track with RR cars such as SRF and DSR and CSR and all of the F cars and alot of participants will not be off of work on friday.

The plus here is that I am trying to find ways we CAN do a PDX at Barbers versus trying to find ways NOT to do a PDX at Barbers .Ultimately its Barbers that is not accomodating .It is about business from their point of view ...totally understood,but we are renting the track for 3 days in a row .It would seem that they would take that into account and give us a break on a one day rental so that we could do a PDX.

The undeniable fact that keeps coming up in my research is that clubs that do well at Barbers in HPDE do not do HPDE exclusively.They attach HPDE to other attractions that supplement /support HPDE.I want to go to Barbers with HPDE...I would absolutely love to do a TT at Barbers ,but its a tall order money wise .We are not unique as a region.Plenty of other SCCA regions are faced with the same problem with their local tracks .

The huge stumbling block in us being able to do Barbers bundled with a Club Race event whether it be TT of SARRC is the SCCA regulations and rules .

You gotta support all of those race groups failing NOTHING ,you got to pull sanctions which is also a minus to PDX,in short it is almost as though according to SCCA...we shouldnt do PDX at all because they have already ruled and regulated it to death to the extent that its almost impossible to do one .

If you disagree,and if Im wrong show me how .I am game for going and lobbying for some changes .I love tack time ...I love track time at Barbers ...show me how we do it without a $6000 loss.History shows that we have a 40 driver entry in PDX no matter where it is .Who wants to pay $500.00 for one day at Barbers?For that matter who wants to pay $800.00 for 2 days at Barbers for 2 days?This isn't a rant ...its just me being realistic . SHOW ME!!!!




RR

[rodhx]

Ricky,

I am primarily a lurker here & hope to be out giving solo a try with you guys in the spring. Thank you for the post, as I found it very interesting & enlightening regarding the PDx struggles.

Regarding who would want to spend $500 for a day at Barbers. The NASA event in June was almost $400 for 2 hours, 20 minutes of HPDE track time. This past weekend's PBOC event was $425 for 3.5 hours. Of course these are the schedule times and are never met, largely due to race group incidents.

Logistically it may be completely undoable, but $500 for a saturday with ~4hrs of track time per group looks pretty competitive to me. I realize that would mean 2 groups of 20 cars, each with 30 minute sessions, so anyone instructing and driving would have a very busy day...and the instructor issue by itself would probably kill that kind of schedule.

Another alternative may be a $400 day which includes 3 groups having 20 minute sessions. That is 2:40 per group, still requiring quick changes for instructors but I think it was 3 groups at TGPR. $400 is 50 cars, so the groups would be relatively small.

I'm just a rookie throwing some ideas around. I know there are logistical issues that make these two scenarios difficult, particularly regarding instructors. I have already been planning to spend about $400 on a Barber weekend next year and would find a cost competitive Saturday-only event very tempting. However, I may be alone in that.

I would settle for a saturday solo or two

Rod

[JohnW8]

The way I understand it, we can't get the track for 1 day. For 2 days it would cost $34000 (using Ricky's numbers) and with the entry fee of $400 we'd need 85 entrants to break even.

Hey, what about a group buy/preorder sort of thing... everyone interested buys in at $400 and when we get 85 people signed up for a 2 day Barber track day, we schedule it.

Just a thought to see how many would be interested in it.

Any board members online?

[EWaugh]

The only problem with that idea John is the Barber schedule. They are already working on the schedule for next year and will probably be done with it in the first week of January. It's not like TGPR where we can find an empty spot on the calendar because there are none.

To add to Ricky's post PBOC doesn't really make anything either even with the races, but they do make money at other tracks. IT cost around $4000 to put on the event at TGPR. We lost around ~$800. IF we did the same at Barber's with a cost of $37000, we would lose $7400, which is a lot for our bank account to handle with the club race bills starts coming in. We didn't make very much at all off the club race this year either. However, two years from now when racers realize that this is going to be a regular spot on the calendar that should change. If we start making $10,000 off of club racing then that kind personally I could deal with that sort of hit. We just aren't bringing in enough of a profit to take the risk right now.