Just makin sure

[rodhx]

All they had to do was stamp it "Chrysler" somewhere. Don't know if they did...

Was the 1.8 base motor still a Mitsu in origin? I know the 2.0s were.

[jledford]

None were Chrysler engines in the first generation. The 420A in the second generation was designed by Chrysler I believe and similar to what was in the Neons. All said Mitsubishi on the engines.

[e30Racer]

Hmmm....this is getting interesting.

[rodhx]

Clearly Jerry is mistaken. There can't be an error in the rule book.

[kilgojr]

Okay, here is another interesting twist.

Street Mod can utilize any Street Prepared or Stock rule-set they want (page 108, SCCA rulebook 2013 16.1). From another forum (http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/4418) I found this:

"Any RS Camaro... can run ANY 350 Chevy... BECAUSE... SM adopts SP rules... which backdate and Update are legal... you can take parts off a V-6 Camaro... as long as it is on the same line of the other like years.. for Camaro that would be 82-92 and 93-02... That is what SP would let you do..."

Technically Chevrolet markets the RS Camaro and SS Camaro as different models. The RS Camaro never came with a 350 V8, according to this poster on this forum, but the SS Camaro did.

According to their interpretation, as in the CSP crowd is popular to update and backdate engines, 1.8L motor from 99 forward into the earlier 97 and 98 models. This is okay. So that would mean to me, that in Jeremiah's case, he actually could update and backdate, because according to page 192 Appendix A, Solo Rulebook 2013 the Mitsubishi Eclipse for DSP is LINE listed as (2000-2012).

[jledford]

Clearly Jerry is mistaken. There can't be an error in the rule book.

I could be! It's been a while but all of the engines in the 1st generation were 4G varients: 4G63, 4G63T, 4G37 (for the 1.8 I think?). The body panels were the only real difference between the Eclipse, Talon, and Laser.

My buddy Nate probably remembers more of this than I do for the 1st generation as he's done a 4G63T swap into his Mirage. Of course the Mirage and Dodge Colt were the same cars and came with 4G61T in certain models so a 4G63T swap should be legal in SMF as it's a Mitsu motor, right?

The second generation had the 420A Chrysler motor as the NA version. The turbo version was still the Mitsu 4G63. I wonder if that rule was quoted for the 2nd generation version? I know that Dennis Grant, www.farnorthracing.com, ran his 1997 Eagle Talon in SM but he kept the original Mitsu 4G63. So the rule might have been to allow an NA Eagle Talon with the Chrylser 420A to put in a Mitsu 4G63T? It's all very confusing

[rodhx]

yeah, the SP update/backdate is certainly available in SM, but it is much more limited than the SM allowance. The catch, as you pointed out, is that only applies on a line-by-line basis in the appendices, and only engines available to models in that line are legal (not ANY Chevy 350 as quoted above, since they are legion, but any 350 available to Camaro model years listed on the line). In Jeremiah's case this is the easy button.

The CSP Miata swaps are easy 'cause the SP listing is simply "Miata, 1990-2005" so everything found in a NA or NB Miata is fair game. That applies to everything, not just the engine swaps. That is how the CSP Miatas are able to legally remove their soft tops even though there were only something like 150 2003 Club Sport models ever made without soft tops.

We definitely have a coupla guys who know how to work the SP magic

[rodhx]

I could be!

Just in case it was missed...my post was intended to be a sarcastic shot at the rule book, not your wealth of DSM knowledge

[e30Racer]

Good find John! I think that would basically solve Jeremiah's issue regardless of what the rule says about what engine can be used in 16.1.D.1.

But in regards to the RS/SS Camaro, I think that the SCCA would deem them to be the same model under their explanation of what a model is. The RS and SS have virtually identical bodies (except for differing body kits, hood scoop) and are on the same chassis. Therefore, the SCCA would call them the same model even though Chevrolet may market them as different models. In my opinion, this is the same as the difference between the BMW 318i and BMW 325i. Basically the same body and the exact same chassis but with different engines. The SCCA would deem them the same model, but with different engine options.

I have sent an email to the Solo Tech dept at National asking for them to support the claim that an Eclipse/Eagle/Talon was offered with a Chrysler badged engine. If it is the case that all were offered with Mitsubishi badged engines, but you could still swap in a Chrysler engine, then this could have some effect on the new FRS/BRZ and using either a Subaru or Toyota engine.

[rodhx]

"Camaro" is a model. "RS" and "SS" are trim levels. In my pathetic little mind at least.

[jledford]

Just in case it was missed...my post was intended to be a sarcastic shot at the rule book, not your wealth of DSM knowledge

I know

But I have been out of the DSM game for 3 to 4 years so some of the details I knew might be starting to slip. I could still build a 500awhp 93 oct car with my eyes closed though

[e30Racer]

So I am going to guess that the use of any Chrysler or Mitsubishi engine in a Laser/Talon/Eclipse is actually do to a combination of 16.1.D.1 and the update/backdate rule that John just brought up. In ESP, the Laser/Talon/Eclipse is listed as 89-99 which includes both the 1st gen and 2nd gen models. Therefore, in SP you could use the Chrysler NA engine (2nd gen model) or Mitsubishi turbo engine (1st gen and 2nd gen models). Now, moving into SM and having the 16.1.D.1 you can then use any manufacturer badged engine that is listed in Appendix A for your model.

[kilgojr]

So I am going to guess that the use of any Chrysler or Mitsubishi engine in a Laser/Talon/Eclipse is actually do to a combination of 16.1.D.1 and the update/backdate rule that John just brought up. In ESP, the Laser/Talon/Eclipse is listed as 89-99 which includes both the 1st gen and 2nd gen models. Therefore, in SP you could use the Chrysler NA engine (2nd gen model) or Mitsubishi turbo engine (1st gen and 2nd gen models). Now, moving into SM and having the 16.1.D.1 you can then use any manufacturer badged engine that is listed in Appendix A for your model.

In the future, Dr. Mark Kilgore will be charging you for this legal advice.

[kilgojr]

This entire discussion is why race teams employ Lawyers to explain the "cheating" the crew chiefs do.

[rodhx]

I think I'll write a letter suggesting the early DSM cars be put on the exclusion list just to avoid general rule stupidity. Nevermind...there are not enough of them still running to be worried about

full disclosure: I owned a 1990 Eclipse Turbo way back in 91-93