Just makin sure

[TouringBubble]

Looking specifically at the section now in debate ...

Models
produced as a joint venture between manufacturers may utilize
any engine from any partner in the joint venture, provided that
an engine from the desired manufacturer was a factory option in
that particular model (e.g., Eagle Talon, available originally with
either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor from
Chrysler or Mitsubishi).

I read this as if you have an NA Eagle Talon, you can use the 4G63T from the Eclipse, as it's from the same "model." If the engine was not an option in that model (Eclipse/Talon/Laser), you can't use it in SM.

I do agree that the parenthetical disagrees with the statement directly above, and states that any Mitsu or Chrysler engine can be used. But, that's an example to illustrate the rule above, not a rule itself. It's still misleading.

Basically, you can't ignore the line stating "any engine from any partner in the joint venture [provided that the engine] was a factory option in
that particular model" because the next line says "may use any motor from Chrysler or Mitsubishi."

Also, I'm assuming that they are calling chassis shared between manufacturers as the same "model," as the Talon/Eclipse/Laser are not technically the same "model" in the traditional sense. This is why I claim that the Civic/Integra is legal. I really think that could go either way though ... it's not very clear and arguments could easily be made on either side. Does the fact that the dash/seats/engine/trans/fenders/doors swap between cars make them the same "model?"

For instance, we all know the FR-S and BRZ are the same car ... but what about something on the same chassis from one manufacturer? For instance, a VW New Beetle and a Golf or Jetta (or Audi TT for that matter). These are different cars from one manufacturer that all swap components around, but the Beetle only shares the drivetrain, not the body panels. The Integra/Civic example would be very similar, as in Japan they are both Hondas with the same drivetrain/chassis.

[rodhx]

Looking specifically at the section now in debate ...

Models
produced as a joint venture between manufacturers may utilize
any engine from any partner in the joint venture, provided that
an engine from the desired manufacturer was a factory option in
that particular model (e.g., Eagle Talon, available originally with
either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor from
Chrysler or Mitsubishi).

I read this as if you have an NA Eagle Talon, you can use the 4G63T from the Eclipse, as it's from the same "model." If the engine was not an option in that model (Eclipse/Talon/Laser), you can't use it in SM.

I don't think so...

Nowhere does it say you're limited to engines offered in a "model". It says you can use ANY engine from ANY partner (for a joint venture car) provided that AN engine from that partner was offered as a factory option for that model. As the parenthetical explains, in this example you can use ANY motor from Chrysler or Mitsu in your DSM...assuming the rest of the car can stay together of course

It is easier to think of this away from joint ventures. In SM you have the entire vehicle manufacturers engine catalog available. For you Evo guys in SM, the rules allow you to run ANY Mitsubishi motor. Also, as far as the Supra motor was concerned, that Corolla was SM legal.

A quick google shows that this is indeed the correct interpretation of this rule.

For a large portion of my career I was involved in the writing and enforcing of standards. This whole thread is bringing back bad memories and starting to seem like work. Jeremiah is just a trouble maker

[rodhx]

Basically, you can't ignore the line stating "any engine from any partner in the joint venture [provided that the engine] was a factory option in that particular model"

Please note that the rule does not actually say what you have in quotes, specifically the bracketed text.

[TouringBubble]

That why they are brackets ... I think the word "an" is the key, and it seems you are correct. Thanks for the explanation.

so, this interpretation doesn't limit it to year models or chassis either. So you can swap the engine from an SL65 in to a 190E if you wanted? Or an LS9 in a Corvair?

Or, going nuts with it ... A DSM with a big block Plymouth engine (Eclipse and Laser shared DSM engines), A 2JZ BRZ (Joint Toyota, Scooby venture), SRT10 3000GT (Dodge Stealth shared with 3000GT) ... or, is it saying you have to know the origin of the engine itself? Such as, we know Mitsubishi built the DSM engines, so you can use the Mitsu engines in the Talon, but not Chrysler engines in the Eclipse?

[e30Racer]

You could swap a BMW V10 from a M6 into an e30 and run SM. But if you swapped a LS4 V8 into an e30, it would no longer be SM eligible.....doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but the rules are the rules.

I would like to know the reasoning behind the way the rule was written as that can shed some light onto what the rule makers were trying to accomplish. Not that I am expecting anyone to know why, but just throwing a question out into the internet yonders. For example, sway bar allowances in Stock were due to cars rolling over under hard cornering in stock form like 30 years ago. Nowadays, that's not an issue with the use of CG calculations for determining car eligibility.

[HPEVOX]

Run whatever you want until someone has enough evidence to protest you and prove you wrong? If they can read the code that is known as the SCCA rulebook and make it understandable then you may have to change classes. As seen above though it seems there are many translations of the rule. Just do it and run SM. The people that wrote that rule book couldn't make sense of it themselves if you asked them. Too much junk in there to please each year of complaints. My head spins trying to read ONE of the sentences that is about 200 words long?! Maybe at nationals it may be more important, but our local events...... I speak for the SM crowd and say.. join us.... Come to the dark side.

[e30Racer]

That why they are brackets ... I think the word "an" is the key, and it seems you are correct. Thanks for the explanation.

so, this interpretation doesn't limit it to year models or chassis either. So you can swap the engine from an SL65 in to a 190E if you wanted? Or an LS9 in a Corvair?

Or, going nuts with it ... A DSM with a big block Plymouth engine (Eclipse and Laser shared DSM engines), A 2JZ BRZ (Joint Toyota, Scooby venture), SRT10 3000GT (Dodge Stealth shared with 3000GT) ... or, is it saying you have to know the origin of the engine itself? Such as, we know Mitsubishi built the DSM engines, so you can use the Mitsu engines in the Talon, but not Chrysler engines in the Eclipse?

Eclipse with big block Plymouth engine....how is the plymouth engine badged? Is it a plymouth engine or a chrysler engine? Plymouth engine would be a no go as the Eclipse was not offered with a plymouth engine. Chrysler engine would be a go as the Eclipse was offered with a chrysler engine.

2JZ BRZ? No. The only engine offered in the FRS/BRZ is badged as a Subaru. So you can only swap in a subaru engine.

SRT 10 3000GT? No. From what I see on google/wikipedia, the 3000GT and Stealth were only offered with a Mitsubishi engine. So you can only swap in a mitsubishi engine.

[rodhx]

so, this interpretation doesn't limit it to year models or chassis either. So you can swap the engine from an SL65 in to a 190E if you wanted? Or an LS9 in a Corvair?

Or, going nuts with it ... A DSM with a big block Plymouth engine (Eclipse and Laser shared DSM engines), A 2JZ BRZ (Joint Toyota, Scooby venture), SRT10 3000GT (Dodge Stealth shared with 3000GT) ... or, is it saying you have to know the origin of the engine itself? Such as, we know Mitsubishi built the DSM engines, so you can use the Mitsu engines in the Talon, but not Chrysler engines in the Eclipse?

Correct, you can go nuts if you so desire. The key in the rule is the brand/manufacturer of the factory offered engines. Consider the Toybarus... we all know it is a Subie engine with some Toyota tweaks. I don't know how it is branded, but if the FRS block says "Subaru" on it then you can swap in any Subie engine for an SM/SSM build. Or, more interestingly, if the BRZ motor sufficiently says "Toyota" then someone needs to get busy swapping in a Supra motor. I was going to say Lexus LFA motor for pure sexiness but the rule says swaps among brands only corporately related are not kosher.

This thread has me really wanting to see a SM Eclipse with SRT8 Hemi

[e30Racer]

Also, I'm assuming that they are calling chassis shared between manufacturers as the same "model," as the Talon/Eclipse/Laser are not technically the same "model" in the traditional sense. This is why I claim that the Civic/Integra is legal. I really think that could go either way though ... it's not very clear and arguments could easily be made on either side. Does the fact that the dash/seats/engine/trans/fenders/doors swap between cars make them the same "model?"

For instance, we all know the FR-S and BRZ are the same car ... but what about something on the same chassis from one manufacturer? For instance, a VW New Beetle and a Golf or Jetta (or Audi TT for that matter). These are different cars from one manufacturer that all swap components around, but the Beetle only shares the drivetrain, not the body panels. The Integra/Civic example would be very similar, as in Japan they are both Hondas with the same drivetrain/chassis.

A model must have BOTH a nearly identical body and the same chassis. "Nearly identical body" allows for things such as factory body kits, different grills, hood scoop on sport model, etc. The first generation Ford Focus and 99-01 Mercury Cougar shared the same chassis, but the bodies are clearly not "nearly identical". Therefore, one could not swap in a motor from Mercury into a Focus just because the Focus and Cougar share the same chassis. (Yes this is a bad example because Mercury was owned by Ford and the engine in the Cougar was a Ford, but it still serves to help explain my point.)

[rodhx]

Eclipse with big block Plymouth engine....how is the plymouth engine badged?

The DSM Laser was a Plymouth. Not that any of you young whippersnappers know that Plymouth was a car brand at one time

No idea is that answers the question though

[e30Racer]

The DSM Laser was a Plymouth. Not that any of you young whippersnappers know that Plymouth was a car brand at one time

No idea is that answers the question though

The rules do not say anything about the make of the car bearing an effect on the choice of the engine. Only the make of the engine matters.

It appears as though there were separate Chrylser and Plymouth engines. So the answer to a Plymouth big block Eagle Talon or Mitsubishi Eclipse (1st Gen) is no. Chrysler big block would be allowed though.

[kilgojr]

The rules do not say anything about the make of the car bearing an effect on the choice of the engine. Only the make of the engine matters.

It appears as though there were separate Chrylser and Plymouth engines. So the answer to a Plymouth big block Eagle Talon or Mitsubishi Eclipse (1st Gen) is no. Chrysler big block would be allowed though.

This is interesting because looking at the information on the Laser/Eclipse/Talon that is the example of the rule....the Manufacturer is Diamond Star Motors (DSM) and the engines used in all of these was badged as a Mitsubishi (a 4g37, a 4g63, and a 4g63t). No mention of Chrysler or Mitsubishi is made in the Manufacturer title of the car, except at the corporate level, which if I look correctly we have stated that the rules say you can not use.

LOL.

[TouringBubble]

So SCCA's own rule example is not legal as we are interpreting? Or is it that DSM is seens at Mitsu, and my assessment is valid ... you can use Mitsu, Eagle/Chrysler engines in the Talon and Mitsu/Plymouth engines in the Laser, but only Mitsu in the Eclipse?

[rodhx]

Their example is fine. The discussion is around branding. DSM is a joint venture plant, not a "manufacturer" in the automotive sense of the word.

[e30Racer]

The badging of the car has no impact on the engine that can be used in that car. I agree with John, I could not find any DSM car that came with a Chrysler badged engine. Where is Jerry when we need him? He knows all about DSM's!