Course set up proposal

[Cholewa]

I've been away for a while, but I'll add my $0.02 from putting together a handful of courses at the PBOC events.

Driving the course makes all the difference. You get a much better idea of braking distances, flow, speed, where the car will actually be in a section, how long or short sections actually are at speed, etc.

You don't need to drive the course in its entirety to get it to work. You drive it until you come to a problem, fix it, go back, test that fix out and see if it worked or needs more, then continue to the next problem. Once it's sorted, one run through to triple check is all that's necessary, which isn't really giving anyone an edge. And lets be honest, the person setting up the course, getting there at 5:30 in the morning, should maybe get a bit more of a benefit than a reduced entry price.


Anyhoo, I think this is a great idea and will help with the flow of courses, placement of problem cones, and morale.

And +1 to Heath, brake at the lights. They trip when your front bumper crosses, not your entire car. We all want a thrill, but there's no reason for jackassery.

[nicktcr]

I think a full tilt hotlap before the course is approved sounds like it could get out of hand. However a "spirited" recce lap to check gate widths and look for unexpected surface abnormalities is absolutely a good idea.

I don't think that gives much more advantage to a course designer than the fact that they set it up in the first place and know what went where. Basically a few helmet-free passes to look for awkward, painful, unexpected things and to confirm that it flows as expected should be totally expected. Let's make this the new standard practice. People will learn to stay off the course while it's still being set up...or they'll be splat.

[jeallen]

You know... I look really angry here, but I wasn't. Just serious about the task at hand.

Safety can be stressful!

[claym]

You know... I look really angry here, but I wasn't. Just serious about the task at hand.

Safety can be stressful!

U looked very presidential John!

Again, I appreciate all the help with the issues last weekend, and hope the positives outweighed the negatives...

Course setup at new sites with landscape issues are always a work in progress. Sunday seemed to be better than Saturday (except for people wanting to mimic Dukes of Hazard at finish) but hopefully the next event there will build on the issues that showed during runs and make it even better!

[Vfastcaddy]

I've been away for a while, but I'll add my $0.02 from putting together a handful of courses at the PBOC events.

Driving the course makes all the difference. You get a much better idea of braking distances, flow, speed, where the car will actually be in a section, how long or short sections actually are at speed, etc.

You don't need to drive the course in its entirety to get it to work. You drive it until you come to a problem, fix it, go back, test that fix out and see if it worked or needs more, then continue to the next problem. Once it's sorted, one run through to triple check is all that's necessary...

I hope you guys do this. It does make all the difference.

I've done several course designs in Huntsville over the past few years. I spend a lot of time working it all out on paper beforehand. I know what I want to accomplish. And then they are all, every one, full of issues when driven the first time.

After fixing the issues, people generally like them.

The only person I know who can set the cones into position and have it good from the start is Dennis S. None of the rest of us can do it. I guess we just don't have enough experience at it.

By the way, even with the best course designers in the country doing the design, they never not run the courses at National Tours. They are just always run by one of the SCCA non-competitors, being watched by the designer and others, who consult with the driver. Adjustments are always necessary.

I do think it is an advantage for the course designer to run the course, even if only done section by section. But, the payoff to the club is huge. Safer, better flow, more fun for everyone.

The advantage against experienced competition seems to last for the first 2 runs. After that, everyone has caught up and we are in the usual dog-fight.

[VetteNut]

Agree, it's only an advantage for the first run or two...BUT are you going to volunteer to show up early and set up the course for that perceived advantage???
If i was so great, it would be the same people all season...and that would be a fight...just sayin'
I think it's a necessary evil for a good course design and just part of the event. THANK YOU to all the event masters that get up early, work their ass off, and deal with the criticism. We all benefit and enjoy from your labors and I think one run or two advantage is fair enough (if that's even the case)...my $.0002



btw...had a great time this past weekend - see you all again in NvS!!!

[claym]

I hope you guys do this. It does make all the difference.

I've done several course designs in Huntsville over the past few years. I spend a lot of time working it all out on paper beforehand. I know what I want to accomplish. And then they are all, every one, full of issues when driven the first time.

After fixing the issues, people generally like them.

The only person I know who can set the cones into position and have it good from the start is Dennis S. None of the rest of us can do it. I guess we just don't have enough experience at it.

By the way, even with the best course designers in the country doing the design, they never not run the courses at National Tours. They are just always run by one of the SCCA non-competitors, being watched by the designer and others, who consult with the driver. Adjustments are always necessary.

I do think it is an advantage for the course designer to run the course, even if only done section by section. But, the payoff to the club is huge. Safer, better flow, more fun for everyone.

The advantage against experienced competition seems to last for the first 2 runs. After that, everyone has caught up and we are in the usual dog-fight.

I found out last weekend that the biggest advantage is to be one of the first 5 cars in a group so you get many reruns

[rodhx]

I found out last weekend that the biggest advantage is to be one of the first 5 cars in a group so you get many reruns

Didn't seem to help me...

[Focus]

I don't have a problem with trial runs, especially section-by-section. What if the course designer has a car that doesn't rub, scrape or bottom out? I'm half joking, but I do wonder where the line gets drawn. How many cars need to scrape before we change the course to protect the pavement? I wouldn't want to mess up everyone else's course, but I'd hate to lose a venue because of one person's setup. Was Sunday's course acceptable?

[SamC]

I don't have a problem with trial runs, especially section-by-section. What if the course designer has a car that doesn't rub, scrape or bottom out? I'm half joking, but I do wonder where the line gets drawn. How many cars need to scrape before we change the course to protect the pavement? I wouldn't want to mess up everyone else's course, but I'd hate to lose a venue because of one person's setup. Was Sunday's course acceptable?

A proper race car will rub, scrape, and bottom out


I had to say it...

[JohnW8]

As a course designer and safety steward, we should strive to make sure that the course doesn't cause damage to any car. Who would want to pay an entry fee to break your car?
Saturday I had already decided that if my car slammed into the dip and bottomed out I was out. I won't tear up a car like that.

[rodhx]

Saturday I had already decided that if my car slammed into the dip and bottomed out I was out. I won't tear up a car like that.

+1

When we last ran at the Met the course design at the dip was such that bottoming out there destroyed the left front Koni on our RSX. I had told Sam ahead of time that if I thought I was going to have a similar issue with the M3 that I would withdraw. My car is fairly low but I never had a problem this weekend.

Running at the Met will just have to be similar to the old days at the dog track where we had to have tight features at each crossing to keep cars from going airborne over the humps.

[bimmertech]

I'm all for having the course run before being approved. It seems we used to do this at the dog track, although a competing car was never used.

[chuck schultz]

Some time in the last century, IIRC, Glen Region (and perhaps others in the area) compensated the event chair/course designer with points equal to first place in his/her class. In addition to providing an incentive to do the work, this also took away any complaints about pre-running the course.

[Focus]

A proper race car will rub, scrape, and bottom out

Ha ha. I know I drive an overly tall econobox with a camber problem that requires a tall ride height. It's not stanced out, but I'm ok with that.

The lowered Z cars were the only ones damaging the lot on the reversed course. The miatas and corvettes (the real sports cars) might have touched a tire to a fender, or a splitter to the ground on Sunday, but that only hurts the car, (and maybe the the car owner's wallet or pride,) not the club. Shouldn't this be as important as sound levels, since it can cause us to lose a venue and build a negative reputation in the area? Sorry about pointing the finger Sam, but it's worth considering. Nothing personal.