A Proposal for PDX and Track Trials

[jatow]

there was actually an SM Solo 1 class way before the SM solo class came about and I actually wrote a rules this past year to move the old Solo 1 SM to another class - there were very few of the old Solo1 SM cars so it may be a mute point.

Mark,

Moot point understood, however:

Street Mod, SpecMiata, Sandy-haired Midgets...What SM are you talking about??

Where can we find the SeDiv TT rules (might be a good time for me to review them before participating in my 5th season of TimeTrials!)?

Andy Tow
SM 16
White Turbo Miata

[chuck schultz]

Classes for TT in SEDIV

http://www.rivergate5speed.com/scca/timetrials/rules.html

This has not been updated for awhile but basically any Road Racing class Regional or National plus Street Prepared (ASP,BSP,CSP,DSP, and FSP) plus SM.
And yes it needs to be updated.

[jatow]

I've seen those, but I had heard that there are specific rules regarding SeDiv recognized classes, any ideas?

[dr_phatcity]

I saw that PDX was tabled at the last BOD meeting. Is this going to be brought up at the next meeting??

[zukitek]

I saw that PDX was tabled at the last BOD meeting. Is this going to be brought up at the next meeting??

Probably ....but not specifically directed towards Barber's.We will likely talk about when we want to do a PDX at TGPR this 2009 year and make preparations to make it happen.

The TT/PDX @Barber's topic is pending some more indepth research ,and more importantly, some more conversations with the powers that be in SEDIV in a couple weeks at Jeckyll Island,GA.

RR

RR

[FVee90]

Reading over this I feel your pain RR.
Let's see we have posters who claim a high total of entrants to pay $350 a pop when the past events at Barber and TGPR didn't get a good number.
Your Dr. Phat that seems to caution against time for the wings and things but I doubt he has ever been in a formula car trying to pass a full bodied 1000 lb heavier car and hear the excuse "oh I didn't see you".
Everyone wants track time but I don't know anyone around here that wants to put their car in a dumpster. Most of the people that run SCCA in this area do not have new BMW's and Porsches and the money that goes with them.
Magic pixie dust seems to flow freely on the forums posts of grand results but with a economy getting very sluggish I hope for the best in the big race track venues.

[chuck schultz]

past events at Barber and TGPR didn't get a good number.

There were lots of reasons for that - late decisions on dates, moving dates, weak publicity.

I watched one club sell over 120 track day slots for for a weekend in Atlanta as recently as December, plus fill up a TT group, two race groups, and a fun race for charity (with over 70 cars.) That doesn't count the 8-hour enduro they ran that Friday. This was not a marque club with a bunch of new cars. They were club racers and track day fans (except for a couple pro teams that showed up to test, too.)

If someone has the time and energy to do the planning and publicity, I believe it can be done, with the amount of track time and for the price discussed previously.

Magic pixie dust seems to flow freely on the forums posts of grand results but with a economy getting very sluggish I hope for the best in the big race track venues.

I ain't no pixie, and I don't think I'm blowing smoke, here, either. I believe this could be done successfully with the right kind of leadership. Of course, I'm no leader, and I certainly don't have the time. I'm just somebody who made a proposal.

It may be too late to schedule a date, now, anyway, but it's an idea whose time should come, some day.

[zukitek]

Ehhhhh,Mark ...I think it is all a big cycle and our part of the circle is currently on the backside of the moon right now ,LOL.Dr.Phat is all good ..hes just new to the whole TT discussion .Hes one o those_mini cooper_guys <EG>.

The big venue is at least a season away but as you well know some of these things take more than a year to develop .I really just want to pursue what folks want to be pursued .I really dont have a huge agenda personally ,I just wanna do what I _think_I hear members asking for .

I know you know what that is likeSee ya in a couple weeks .

RR

[FVee90]

Chuck not trying to get in a fight with you but Atlanta has the base to be able to supoort a high turnout in their own members alone while this area I believe and hope is growing.
Maybe we can ask Obama for some help.

[dr_phatcity]

Response

Reading over this I feel your pain RR.
Let's see we have posters who claim a high total of entrants to pay $350 a pop when the past events at Barber and TGPR didn't get a good number.

- There are 5 different two day PDX/HPDE events at Barbers this year. Yes, some of them are run by Porsche or BMW clubs, but if you actually try to get into these events, it has been nearly impossible to register. They fill up on the day of registration.
- There is no doubt that these events can be done, though as Chuck mentioned it might take someone (other than RR who is totally overburdened) to spend the planning time to work it out.
-Gasp, we might even have to consider doing a joint event with one of the other groups (I'd favor ALBMW CCA) for the first few years.


Your Dr. Phat that seems to caution against time for the wings and things but I doubt he has ever been in a formula car trying to pass a full bodied 1000 lb heavier car and hear the excuse "oh I didn't see you".

-Nope never done that.
-I am a strong proponent of Track Safety. (I wont run with a number of groups based on their less than stellar safety reputation)
-The caution was not an attack against wings and things, just a request for parity. Entrance fee = X, the available track time should be split as equally as possible.
*If TT wants to take up the track for four hours on sunday, then they should pay their fair share
*If wings and things wants an hour of private track time, they should pay their fair share.
*If RR wants to run his KART, he should pay his fair share
-The club will need to attract instructors and we will need to figure out how to get enough of them. Some groups achieve this by showing strong preference for the instructor/race groups. When the instructors get mixed in with the advanced solo group, I don't seem to mind, but sometimes it goes overboard with most all delays and COSTS being heaped on the PDX groups.

Everyone wants track time but I don't know anyone around here that wants to put their car in a dumpster. Most of the people that run SCCA in this area do not have new BMW's and Porsches and the money that goes with them.

-I don't have the money to run a BMW or a Porsche, nor do I have the money to run wings and things.
-I saw Chuck run down a number of these fancier cars at RA, so I don't think that matters too much what car you are driving. Most important part is the nut behind the wheel.
-As far as the dumpster --- I haven't learned the dumpster on the track flag yet. Which one is that --- Chuck?

Magic pixie dust seems to flow freely on the forums posts of grand results but with a economy getting very sluggish I hope for the best in the big race track venues.

- Aside from the pixie dust comment, I share your concern about the future of big race track venues. However, if the people who are interested in motorsports feel like they can't get into the "club/onto the track" because its only for fancy cars, then the track venues will really suffer. Frankly, I'm suprised that Barbers doesn't have more interest in developing their local SCCA. It would seem neighborly and financially sound.
-As I have said before, the ALSCCA put on the best HPDE/PDX event I've seen (though I've only been to 5-7 events and Chuck is probably a much better judge). I'd love to see some regular cars driven by serious drivers kick the snot out of fancier cars.

[FVee90]

Dr.
I run a wings and things because the top notch Solo cars were too expensive by the time money, shocks, and tires are all added up. Not all wings and things are into money like a Radical sports racer.
One bigger problem is that some think PDX is a race - it is not. It is supposed to be a learning experience to lead into competition but some seem to like it as stand alone (I gots no problem wit dat). Keep in mind insurance is keeping up with the accidents and the unfortunate death that occurs in PDX events (not in this area).
I tend to think the TTers who do level 3 and 4 drive and pass much better since I was lucky to go to the Double RR school at Roebling with several who had no problem - there is passing at TT's level 3 during practice.

[farrout]

Few people run a bone stock car at an HPDE or PDX and if they do, it is not for very long. The bug kicks in and they modify the suspension, run race tires, do engine mods, etc. First time I ran an HPDE, the RX7 was mostly stock. After one track event, the first thing I added was a rollbar since I thought about the consequences of rolling over on track at 100mph plus.

TT allows for Street Prepared cars to race. Yes, they do have to have the safety modifications (seat, rollbar, harnesses, personal gear). IMHO, the safety mods are very important (ever see a stock BMW roll over and absolutely flatten the roof to the door? I have).

Ever count the number of CSP/SM/SSM prepared Miatas in TT. They can easily make up 1/3 of the entries. You do not have to spend megabucks to do a PDX or HPDE. Many of the current TT cars cost less than the newer Porsche, Honda, Audi, etc cars that some drive in a PDX.

"PDX/HPDE is not racing." True in that the cars are not timed. False in that everyone is mostly driving as fast as they can other than when an instructor is holding them back for mostly good reasons.

[FVee90]

Ahh but it was TRUE that it was thought the PDXes were to driven at 80%. However, the PDX events at Pocono Raceway with some Porsches and Vettes approaching 180mph with long sleeves, M rated helmet, and normal seatbelts finally woke some people up.

[dr_phatcity]

FVee90, I'd be more than happy to discuss the various cost analysis of running my daily driver versus a dedicated track car (I'm just getting to the point of needing to make a switch to a track car, maybe?); but, this thread has run WAAAYYYY off topic.

It would be really nice to see Chuck's proposal be moved from the "pixie dust" stage to something more practical.

Chuck's idea of trying to combine a TT with PDX is a great one. By combining these groups, it allows the club to draw from a larger pool of people who might be interested in doing a large track day. We will need to get the most number of people possible to pull this off so inclusion would be great. My wings and things comments were not mean to be divisive, just trying to give everyone a fair shake. If ALSCCA is going to grow into doing more PDX/TT, then more people are going to have to get involved.

RR's plan of doing an event in Talladega is a good one, maybe even a PDX/TT tester event. It would allow for a not so expensive way of guaging interest in track days for people in the area, see how the TT/PDX schedule worked, and allow more people to get involved so RR isn't stuck doing everything.

As mentioned, HPDE is not racing. It's a middle ground where people can learn to drive at speed more safely. It should be an easy transition stage for people who like to race but don't want to ANY risk with their car (autocross) and those who like to race and are willing to accept some (albeit small) risk of damage to the vehicle (track racing).

I'd love to be able to learn from other people who've been more serious about their track time than me. I'm not an idiot, I realize that I likely have a ton to learn from you about your TT experience. It would just be nice to make this all work.

[FVee90]

Dr
Believe me I want to see success as much as anyone but I also see the picture from the worker license side and to adhere to the rules and the hardship placed on event organizers to meet the rules and meet the track time per event entry cost. I have no problem with Chuck either and as anyone can tell you I have worked the PDX at Barber and this years TGPR. I can also give some insite to Time Trials and the amount they pay for an event and the entry number fallout when it gets to $250 and more. As an RE of a neighboring region whose RR and TT numbers have increased over the last few years it is important to me that ALSCCA suceeds in any endevor because a 2 hour tow is a heck of a lot nicer than a 4 or 8 hour tow.
Just a taste of a Road Race Vee costs for me
$3000 Caracal C FV
$4000 professionally built motor - already lasted 2 years
$250 set of new (on sale) race slicks ran 5 time trials 2 hillclimbs 1 Double drivers school and 6 road races - did need to buy 2 used rears at $100 to finish out.
$200 on a used set of rain tires. Most of the time the Double race weekends used 5-6 gallons of gas. Already had the suit helmet and other safety stuff from previous years.
$7K for a racecar (b4 tires, gas) does seem like a lot but I have seen IT cars for a lot less. I have run Solo since '85 and started Solo1/TT in '89, I wasn't privy to PDX in those years but since I ran the RR school and schedule last year there is nothing more fun than doing the RR thing - I still enjoy all of it Solo, Rallycross, TT but don't wait until your 47 to try RR.
This announcement has been approved by me without bailout money from da new prez.