A Proposal for PDX and Track Trials

[chuck schultz]

I sent this to our new RE a while ago, and he's hinted at the idea in another thread,
so I'll put the whole thing out here, now, for comment. Keep in mind this was just intended
to push discussion at least to the point of serious consideration, and it still requires the commitment
of the Board of Directors to take the (considerable) financial risk.

----------quoted text follows-----------------

Here's an idea about how to bring PDX to a big track, and how to get
TT there at the same time. Please forward to the BoD, check all
assumptions about expenses, and make sure the schedule and math work
as I think they do:

A Proposal: 2-day PDX/TT at a major racing venue.

Goal - provide a fun, quality Performance Driving eXperience and Track
Trials weekend at a major racing venue for our members. Secondary
goals - get members more interested in doing things at a real race
track and increase membership numbers.

Two days - assumed overall expenses, $40,000.

5 groups - Novice, Intermediate, Advanced, Instructors, and Track
Trials (separate sanction, but similar per-car cost for insurance and
sanction fees.)

School groups (including Instructors) get five 20-minute sessions
Saturday, and four on Sunday. (One option, which I've included in the sample day schedule - run one instructor
session first thing, then an hour straight at the end of the day to
get in their 80 minutes on Saturday, or some variation.)

TT group gets four 20-minute open, untimed practice sessions Saturday
and one on Sunday, plus two 70-minute podded, timed sessions on Sunday
(one hour more than other groups, overall.) This could be adjusted
to 3 sessions on Saturday, to lengthen the podded sessions to 80
minutes each, or however the TT folks would prefer, within reason.

30 entries per group.

$350 per entry (free or minimal payment for Instructors.)

120 paid entries X $350 = $42,000.

115 paid entries minimum to reach $40,000.

The finances get more complicated if we need TTers to instruct. Entry
fees might increase, but the instructor group could be eliminated
and/or folded into the Advanced group.

Here's a possible schedule of on-track events. I'll leave it to the
Chief Instructor to set classroom times. All times listed are start
times - sessions may be shortened as needed for cleanup or
emergencies, YMMV, etc.

Saturday:

0800 - Instructors (X)
0820 - Advanced (A)
0840 - Intermediate (I)
0900 - Novice (N)
0920 - Track Trials (T)
0940 - X
1000 - A
1020 - I
1040 - N
1100 - T
1120 - X
1140 - A
1200 - 1300 - Lunch
1300 - I
1320 - N
1340 - T
1400 - X
1420 - A
1440 - I
1500 - N
1520 - T
1540 - X
1600 - A
1620 - I
1640 - N
1700 - Go Home

Sunday

0800 - X
0820 - A
0840 - I
0900 - N
0920 - T
0940 - A
1000 - I
1020 - N
1040 - A
1100-1200 - Lunch/Quiet Hour
1200 - I
1220 - N
1240-1350 - T Timed Runs
1350 - A
1410 - I
1430 - N
1450-1600 - T Timed Runs
1600 - X (plus, maybe, all solo signoffs)
1700 - Go Home

[farrout]

How do you account for the wings and things which have made up as much as 25% of the TT entries?

[chuck schultz]

How do you account for the wings and things

Thanks for the input. Is there a specific prohibition to mixing with "closed wheel" cars in the rules?

Feel free to suggest a better schedule. The schedule I posted is only an example and a starting point for discussion. I wanted to find a way to satisfy the folks who always ask "what about real race cars?" when a PDX is announced, and to bring TT to the big tracks.

My theory was: for the practice sessions, passing only on the straights, with a point-by, just like the PDX groups, which can safely have anything from a stock Suzuki Swift to a Corvette ZR1 or a 1000-horsepower Mustang in the same group.

Competition runs could be podded the same as they are at TGPR, just with larger pods, maybe 5 cars, due to a longer track.

[87RX7RACER]

Thanks for the input. Is there a specific prohibition to mixing with "closed wheel" cars in the rules?

Feel free to suggest a better schedule. The schedule I posted is only an example and a starting point for discussion. I wanted to find a way to satisfy the folks who always ask "what about real race cars?" when a PDX is announced, and to bring TT to the big tracks.

My theory was: for the practice sessions, passing only on the straights, with a point-by, just like the PDX groups, which can safely have anything from a stock Suzuki Swift to a Corvette ZR1 or a 1000-horsepower Mustang in the same group.

Competition runs could be podded the same as they are at TGPR, just with larger pods, maybe 5 cars, due to a longer track.

I don't see anything wrong with that, but at the same time we still need to make sure that there aren't any newbies thrown in with the 1,000 hp cars...

I think that this is a great idea. But a minimum 115 entrants is gonna be tough. The only thing that is helping things out here is the fact that it's a two day event and I think pretty reasonable as far as the price goes.

-Vincent.

[chuck schultz]

we still need to make sure that there aren't any newbies thrown in with the 1,000 hp cars...

Groups are set up by driver ability and experience, not by performance potential of the car. PDX rules with limited passing and good instructors in rookies' cars make it possible and as safe as you can be at speed on a track.

115 entrants is gonna be tough.

I saw a club beat that number in December with only 6 20-minute sessions per group, at about the same price, or higher. Promote it well, and they should come.

[farrout]

Chuck

There is an SCCA prohibition about running open wheel cars (including xSRs) with the full bodied cars. Since there are a fair amount of the wings and things who run SEDIV TT, it would cost you the extra sessions in your schedule for them.

NASA does allow the xSRs to race with the full bodied cars but does not allow the open wheelers.

To put capability in perspective - in my old DSR (which is slower than the Stohrs), I can run times comparable to the GT1 and SPO ex-Nascar cars. In any run group, I would be doing a lot of passing. At Barber, I would be in the 1:34 to 1:36 range.

Our TT's usually run anywhere from 35 to 45 cars. That would be at least 3 sessions for the TT guys to get them all in figuring 10 wings in one session and then splitting the rest into two groups a session. That is 12 sessions to get everyone 4 sessions on Sat.

Suggest having the some of the TT guys run in the instructor group since many of them may be instructors anyway.. The TT guys are used to getting a 15-20 min practice, then 4 race sessions of 3 hot laps (maybe 10 mins if you count the warm-up and cooldown laps) each on Sat.

[chuck schultz]

There is an SCCA prohibition about running open wheel cars (including xSRs) with the full bodied cars.

Could you quote chapter and verse? I'm not familiar enough with the rules to find that. I know I've seen SRFs run with IT cars, etc. in some race groups.

That would be at least 3 sessions for the TT guys to get them all in

The TT guys are used to getting a 15-20 min practice, then 4 race sessions each on Sat.

If the TT folks would prefer more comp runs and less time "free skiing," it should be able to be worked into the schedule. However, I thought one of the common complaints about TT was insufficient track time.

If we cut back to 8 sessions (an average amount of track time) for the PDX folks, that frees up another 80 minutes in the schedule. However, due to the need to share the expenses for the weekend, TTers would probably still not get as many runs as they are used to.

Suggest having the some of the TT guys run in the instructor group

This is possible, but I don't see a need even if 50 TTers show, if the Wings, etc. get their own group. However, if enough of the instructors are TTers, maybe the rest could play with the Advanced students for their practice session. This would free up more of the schedule, but that time would have to be split between students and TTers.

[chuck schultz]

Assuming the F and SR cars can't play with others, here's an alternative breakdown of how the time might be utilized:

5 Groups, 2 days:

Novice
Intermediate
Advanced
Instructors
TT: (TT1 [Wings n Things,] TT2 [Instructors in TT,] TT3 [Other TT])

Novice - 8 sessions x 20 minutes
Intermediate - 8 sessions x 20 minutes
Advanced - 8 sessions x 20 minutes
Instructors - 8 sessions x 20 minutes
TT - 320 minutes-
. TT1 - 1 20-minute practice
. TT2 - 1 20-minute practice (no time used, combined with other instructors)
. TT3 - 1 20-minute practice
which leaves 280 minutes for comp runs.
Assuming 5 cars in a pod, should be able to do 30 cars an hour, 35 in 70 minutes, 40 in 80 minutes, 50 in 100 minutes.
50 cars would get 3 comp runs each (assuming 10 drop out before last run, or somebody loses PDX time.)
35 cars would get at least 4 runs each.
70 cars would get at least 2 runs each.
Option to blend non-TT instructors in with Advanced group would allow at least one more comp run for up to 50 cars.
Still need at least 115 paid entries to break even - this gets complicated with TT folk instructing, too, so maybe more than 30 cars (average) per group would have to enter.
If TT entries are low, PDX groups could get more track time.
Other options to think about - charge $400 per entry, but rebate $50 if entry hits 115 or more, and maybe nominal fees for instructors, maybe more for those instructors who compete in TT.

[EWaugh]

The board realized that there is not a restriction on the number of cars on course for timed runs. We could no find anything in the TT rulebook that said that timed runs had to be split into the pods like they have been in the past. We're working on a plan to run, hopefully just two TT groups with a PDX. One for wings and things and one for everyone else. Depending on how things fall with entrants maybe we could run a combined adv/inst group then the two seperate TT groups. That way everyone should get plenty of practice time.

[87RX7RACER]

Other options to think about - charge $400 per entry, but rebate $50 if entry hits 115 or more, and maybe nominal fees for instructors, maybe more for those instructors who compete in TT.

Well raising the cost isn't going to make it any more attractive. I believe that I speak for everyone here when I say that since the economy is so bad, it's gonna get tougher and tougher for anybody to make an appearance at any event this year.

I'm not trying to be negative in any way, but the key to getting numbers in a big event is getting new people who haven't yet experienced a PDX. 400 bucks is alot of money to someone who hasn't ever experienced a PDX and all of its greatness.

And also, if we have lots of SRF's or winged cars show up, there is a possibility that they may have to be integrated with some of your slower groups. Some people could walk way with the wrong idea about a PDX because of this. Am I wrong?

I for one would LOVE an event like this to take place at Barbers. It is my dream to have a weekend there-I'm just trying to be realistic.

[staticpat]

It may be hard to get that many people locally, but whose to say they can't advertise to people from other regions. People from Atlanta, Florida etc. may be willing to travel for a good 2 day event at Barbers or something.

[chuck schultz]

We could no find anything in the TT rulebook that said that timed runs had to be split into the pods like they have been in the past.

I haven't seen the SEDiv rules. I don't think they're available online. There might be something there. Also, whatever gets done has to pass muster with the TT Safety Steward(s.) If you throw out the old model completely, they might not sign off on it.

I think that, if you line up a group based on best times, there would be very little passing. Just send 'em out close together, fastest first, and make sure they hold back long enough to let everybody get out of the pits. Then everybody gets in at least a couple fast laps before the quickest ones start overtaking. However, how do you get a baseline for the first grid? During practice, or with pods the first time out, or something else (points?)

It may be hard to get that many people locally.

Very true, that's why the PR machine has to work overtime on something like this.

400 bucks is alot of money to someone who hasn't ever experienced a PDX and all of its greatness.

It seems like a lot until you compare it to commercial driving school, which costs more for an hour of lead-follow, and thousands of dollars for two days. However, if we also run a TGPR PDX, that can be less expensive for reluctant first-timers. Then they'll be more likely to make the jump to a bigger, more expensive venue.

[farrout]

Regarding cost - Take a look at what Chin Motorsports, or Mazda Drivers Assoc, or BMWCCA, or POC, or FARA etc are charging for a HPDE. Some of them even run at Barber.

CHin will be at Homestead in Feb - $550 limited to 55 cars plus an instructor fee of $100

[farrout]

I haven't seen the SEDiv rules. I don't think they're available online. There might be something there. Also, whatever gets done has to pass muster with the TT Safety Steward(s.) If you throw out the old model completely, they might not sign off on it.

Looking back, I could not find anything in the TT rules either. The comment about SEDIV approval is quite accurate however.

[chuck schultz]

Maybe the SEDiv TT community should push at the annual meeting to get the Divisional rules published online. I know the class structure can be confusing, and an online reference could get folks off the fence about whether they want to try TT or not. It shouldn't be too difficult to get some PDFs made for folks to see on demand.