A Proposal for PDX and Track Trials

[zukitek]

Yeah, I hear ya on that Chuck.Their RE didnt go into detail as to the exact format .I await the supps.

The enduro guys may want to run the TT as well as vice versa if their licenses and car prep will allow .Again he kept his cards up to his vest.If I understand it correctly ,Kershaws rental is somewhere between TGPR and Roebling...around 5500-6000.

RR

[VroomGrrl]

This will be a challenge to schedule and manage, at first, but should result in more track time.

This will be at Carolina Motorsports Park http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&sourc...h&z=15&iwloc=A in Kershaw, SC.

It'll be hard for some folks to justify traveling for a one-day event, though. That's the best argument against my idea of running a PDX at Barber on Labor Day.

Interesting discussion on trying to juggle enduro and racing this season over on the nasa-se forum. Wonder how that'll end up.

[chuck schultz]

OK, now that SEDiv has started running TT events in run groups rather than pods, and we now know that we won't be punished with multiple fees for combining different types of events at the same venue on the same days, I've modified the proposal to the following, much simpler, schedule.

2-day Combined PDX and TT at a Major Venue

6 Groups:

Novice
Intermediate
Advanced
Instructors
TT1 Wings n Things
TT2 All Other TT

16 hours = 960 minutes
960 minutes / 6 groups = 160 minutes / group

Novice - 8 sessions x 20 minutes
Intermediate - 8 sessions x 20 minutes
Advanced - 8 sessions x 20 minutes
Instructors - 8 sessions x 20 minutes
TT1 - 8 sessions x 20 minutes
TT2 - 8 sessions x 20 minutes

Instructors can be put in with Advanced students instead of having their own group, in case of a shortage of Advanced students or lots of instructors running in TT. This would allow making sessions longer, or having more sessions.

One potential problem area comes to mind - what do we do with 2-driver TT cars? Do they split or alternate sessions, and, if so, do they receive a discount?

Another idea was brought up, tonight, that could make the event more attractive for TTers. Run the TT as two separate events, with points awarded for each day.

What does everyone think, and how would you improve this idea?

[dr_phatcity]

This set-up is quite akin to the Nasa organizations schedule ...

The price break point is somewhere around $350 for this sort of schedule. If I'm reading Fvee's posts correctly, the TT group may find $300 for a two day event at barber cost-prohbitive

Given conversations at the BOD, we would almost certainly have to get a pre-registration process set-up to convince the board it was a good idea to run...

[chuck schultz]

I've asked a few TTers if they'd pay $400 for a double TT at a major venue - that is, points/trophies awarded each of two days on the same weekend. Double SARRC Club Races are popular because for the price of one weekend of travel, they get points for two events. Maybe the formula (combined with a PDX) would work for TT.

[farrout]

GIven our last two events, TT'ers have now been exposed to a new standard of excellence.

The 15 minute sessions, 10-12 cars on track and "pass when you get the finger" in designated areas has proven itself as a viable concept. Cost for 4-5 sessions per day has been $200-225. This has even been a great venue for Road Racers who want track time locally. Most drivers got more track time than they could handle (fatigue, tires, etc).

Could we do a PDX combined with a TT? I could make it fit in a schedule. Instructors would drive in the TT groups (most will have a TT or RR license anyway or we give them a TT Novice one tim elicense) but they will need the safety gear.

Depending on the track, we might have to limit entries in order to give great track time and keep the groups the right size (10-12).

I did HPDEs for years where we paid the $400, got 4 25 min sessions a day and had 20-25 cars on track. I would do Barber for $400 a weekend.

[chuck schultz]

Craig, look at the schedule I proposed in post # 63, above. I suggest putting non-TT instructors in with Advanced students, if there are only a few.

Also, what do you think about a double-points TT, with points awarded separately each day with separate sanction #s for each day? That would bring the point/dollar ratio in line with pricing folks are used to, with the advantage of being on a bigger track.

[dr_phatcity]

Now you've got some consensus --- I hope the momentum continues

[farrout]

Craig, look at the schedule I proposed in post # 63, above. I suggest putting non-TT instructors in with Advanced students, if there are only a few.

Chuck - The weak point in your proposal is accomodating the 2 driver cars in TT. We usually have one 2 driver Wings N Things and sometimes a seecond. There are also multiple 2 driver tin tops. That would add 2 more groups to your schedule.

Instructors normally get free or reduced cost entries.

[farrout]

Also, what do you think about a double-points TT, with points awarded separately each day with separate sanction #s for each day? That would bring the point/dollar ratio in line with pricing folks are used to, with the advantage of being on a bigger track.

Some thoughts. As you have observed, there are quite a few TT'ers who pack up and leave at lunch on Sunday due to the distances they have to travel. Not sure how a 2 day, double event would affect them particularly if the entry fee is $175-200 a day.

Why would a TT driver want to pay $350-400 for the weekend to get the same number of laps he can get on a normal $225 TT weekend? One reason might be to drive a certain track (like Barber or some of the new ones coming up). The weekend would have to offer them something to make it worth it to them to be there.

Double TT weekends might hurt attendance at other TT venues. The thought process might be: "If I can get all my points events here locally, why drive 8 hours one way to go to an event in NC or SC."

Have not done the math since I do not have all the data on track rental at Barber, but how many entrants do we need to break even? We know the basic TT driver count to be expected - 35-40. How many PDX drivers do we need? and can we get them based on our recent history?

[BoostedFD]

Have not done the math since I do not have all the data on track rental at Barber, but how many entrants do we need to break even? We know the basic TT driver count to be expected - 35-40. How many PDX drivers do we need? and can we get them based on our recent history?

It would take around 100+ total entrants at 350-400 to break even at Barbers. I'd think with a two day event at Barbers getting 60-70 PDX drivers wouldn't be out of the question. Barbers is easier to sell than TGP to PDXers, especially if it's a 2 day event.

[chuck schultz]

The genesis of this idea was the justified complaining by real race car drivers whenever a PDX event was discussed. This type of event could accommodate those folks who'd like to just come out and get some laps, but who would be excluded from PDX. It could even run as a non-points event, for trophies and bragging rights.

Nearly all of the SARRC weekends are double points. People still travel around for those, and the clubs presenting them get enough revenue from doubling entries in this way to justify continuing to do so.

My original calculations suggested about 115 paid entries at $350 each, or about 100 at $400. It was understood that instructors would get free track time in exchange for their duties, and that includes any TTers who are instructing.

[Tirewarmer]

Yeah, I hear ya on that Chuck.Their RE didnt go into detail as to the exact format .I await the supps.

The enduro guys may want to run the TT as well as vice versa if their licenses and car prep will allow .Again he kept his cards up to his vest.If I understand it correctly ,Kershaws rental is somewhere between TGPR and Roebling...around 5500-6000.

RR

Hi everyone,

I just ran across this thread when I came to check on the Roebling Road event post that i made.

As Director of the SCR-SCCA Time Trial program, I just wanted to let you guys know that there are no secrets here and we are more than willing to share what we are doing with everyone else.

The cost for an event at CMP is actually higher than Roebling, and is somewhat cost prohibitive. We ran our first event at CMP on the East Course, while the CCR ran their event on the West Course. That let us keep costs down, which we needed to do since our SCR events are "new" and we do not have a solid base of attendees that we were sure would show up.

A little bit about me. I've been involved in SCCA autox for about 12 years, have been running track events and Time Trials for 10 years on and off, initially with EMRA in New England. I have had a track membership at CMP, and I currently compete at NASA-SE Time Trial events in my Miata, but with a roll bar, firesuit, SA helmet, etc. Basically everything that the SCCA requires except arm restraints(which i don't agree with requiring) and a fire extinguisher since I run away quite a bit better than I put out fires.

Your group thinking here seems to be right on par with mine as we started to setup events. NASA is succesfull for quite a few reasons. I won't debate if they are one accident away from being a memory, only time will tell that. But the way that I see it, their success lies here:

1. At any given event they have more HPDE people than they do Time Trialers or racers combined. That takes the financial burden off the race crowd and covers most of the rental of the site.
2. People see NASA as accessible. Partly due to their less than SCCA safety requirements, but also due to the fact that they make a conscious effort to be accessible.
3. NASA has a logical progression from HPDE 1-2-3-4-Time Trial-Racing. Something a bit more similar to this would help the SCCA TT program immensely. It would also spill over to Club Racing by providing somewhere to provide new blood from.

Our first event at CMP went very well. All of the feedback that I have seen about the event on forums has been more than positive. Passing is in my honest opinion, the only way that the Track Trial program will remain viable. Track Trials can't be more restrictive regarding passing than the average track day that you can go to at any track anywhere. I honestly think that once we have established point by passing as the norm, that open passing should be seriously considered.

Well I'll stop typing now, but I'd be more than willing to participate in any TT discussions, and I'd love to see as many of you as possible at our Roebling event. The Supps are here if you'd like to see them(someone had commented on wanting to see our supps in a previous post): http://www.scsportscar.com/content/t...s-20090627.pdf

Joe Oliveira

[dr_phatcity]

Joe,

Thank you for your input. Trying to get this off the ground is a big financial, logistical risk to the club and the more input we get the better.

I'm still hopeful this is something that ALSCCA takes advantage of ---- we do have a GREAT track in our backyard...

-Doc

[Tirewarmer]

Joe,

I'm still hopeful this is something that ALSCCA takes advantage of ---- we do have a GREAT track in our backyard...

-Doc

Yes, you definately do have a great track. If you need any help at one of your events, please let me know. I have my TT Chief Steward, Safety Steward, and Tech Inspector Offical Licenses if you ever need anyone for one of those specialties.

We could still use some workers at next weekend's Roebling event. If anyone is interested in coming down and seeing how we are running our events while helping out, let me know. We're comping rooms and meals for the weekend for workers.