Barber News et al

[JohnW8]

I was responding to what the racers would do and no, the majority of the racers, in my opinion, would not travel for a track day that would cost more than a race weekend and not have any points/positions/places/racing. That's not being a whiner that's just a bad use of racing funds. As far as racers "expecting the club to bear the expense", WTF are you talking about? I pay an entry fee to race at Barber. If the region continues to spend money on roast beast, trophies and Stella Artrois, don't blame that on the racers. That's the regions choice. The slow down in racing has been trending downward for a few years and we haven't adjusted quickly enough.

Even without the trophies and food the track will cost 40-50k that the club doesn't have and hoping to find 100 people minimum to come out and pay $400-$500 per person is a bit rough to take. ESPECIALLY for a racer who has a limited budget and spends their cash on events where they can race like minded people. A trackday wouldn't be worth the tow.

We can barely get 15 people to come out to TGPR for a $100 pdx.

This is a simple volume problem, there are more races in the division than we have racers for them to support.

[Cholewa]

Even without the trophies and food the track will cost 40-50k that the club doesn't have and hoping to find 100 people minimum to come out and pay $400-$500 per person is a bit rough to take. ESPECIALLY for a racer who has a limited budget and spends their cash on events where they can race like minded people. A trackday wouldn't be worth the tow.

We can barely get 15 people to come out to TGPR for a $100 pdx.

This is a simple volume problem, there are more races in the division than we have racers for them to support.

Bare bones weekend at BMP (pulling in thursday night for setup, and having f/s/s for driving) with actual race stuff is more like 60k. For use to even hope to break even, we need 145+ people committed to actually showing up for the whole weekend.

I do think, if we cut out the friday track time, and limit the weekend to setup friday night, and race sat/sun that could help, since we'll save ~12k for the track rental, and we won't have to pay FbF for workers, so that's another $3500. So 15-16k saved by limiting track time. But then the question is, if we get rid of the test day or whatever friday is, will people be less likely to come?

[bimmertech]

This is a simple volume problem, there are more races in the division than we have racers for them to support.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. There are not enough racers to justify the weekend at Barber at this present time, but I believe there are enough drivers, and how will those drivers ever know if they want to make the leap into club racing if they don't experience the track?

As far as the club bearing the cost: I'm simply stating that racers want the weekend they've always had no matter how much money the club uses.

I believe we can run the event without other clubs if we're a little more creative. Say, the clubs fronts 20k as usual and we bond out 20k to members. I would be willing to loan the club 1k to make the event happen and I'm sure there are 19 other members who would do the same. After the event is a success, repay the members. If we come up short, repay in the form of credit to future events so at least we amortize the loss (which I don't think there would be).

[JohnW8]

Bare bones weekend at BMP (pulling in thursday night for setup, and having f/s/s for driving) with actual race stuff is more like 60k. For use to even hope to break even, we need 145+ people committed to actually showing up for the whole weekend.

I do think, if we cut out the friday track time, and limit the weekend to setup friday night, and race sat/sun that could help, since we'll save ~12k for the track rental, and we won't have to pay FbF for workers, so that's another $3500. So 15-16k saved by limiting track time. But then the question is, if we get rid of the test day or whatever friday is, will people be less likely to come?

Test days are a crap shoot. Some use them for added seat time, some for testing, some to see if their junk will hold up for the weekend. When they break on Friday they leave and take their Sat/Sun entry with them. I use them if I've never been to a track before. I did RA this summer the first time with no test day and went straight to qualifying. I was slow trying to find the lines but I had no issues. To me the test day, or half day in my case, would have been a waste of $200. There's been enough laps done at barber that losing a friday test day wouldn't hurt much.

[Cholewa]

This is a simple volume problem, there are more races in the division than we have racers for them to support.

Exactly. There are not enough racers to justify the weekend at Barber at this present time, but I believe there are enough drivers, and how will those drivers ever know if they want to make the leap into club racing if they don't experience the track?

As far as the club bearing the cost: I'm simply stating that racers want the weekend they've always had no matter how much money the club uses.

I believe we can run the event without other clubs if we're a little more creative. Say, the clubs fronts 20k as usual and we bond out 20k to members. I would be willing to loan the club 1k to make the event happen and I'm sure there are 19 other members who would do the same. After the event is a success, repay the members. If we come up short, repay in the form of credit to future events so at least we amortize the loss (which I don't think there would be).[/QUOTE]


We wouldn't be able to put on any other events, autocross/rallyx/tt/anything. We would be tapped out, and in the likely chance that the weekend didn't turn out great, we would have $0 to do anything, and we can't take that kind of risk, it's just not plausible or responsible for the club.

We exist to benefit our members, and if we are losing money hand over fist at a specific event, regardless of the benefit to the members partaking, it's irresponsible for us to continue that event at the expense of everything else we do. And for us, ALSCCA, I don't think the number of dues paying members that club race is anywhere close to the number of members who take part in our other events, which we couldn't fund if we lost out.


Honestly, our best bet is to just not go back this coming year. We need to recover from that loss before we even attempt to do it again. Maybe this just isn't a club racing region, and that honestly shouldn't be a problem with the amount of events in SEDiv.

[JohnW8]

Exactly. There are not enough racers to justify the weekend at Barber at this present time, but I believe there are enough drivers, and how will those drivers ever know if they want to make the leap into club racing if they don't experience the track?

Barber is just another track and won't in my opinion be the last nudge that makes you get a racing license. When you say drivers who are you referring to? PDXers? PBOC was hurting for entrants at their event at Barber. They were calling local folks who ran with them before to try and entice them with discounted entries if they would bring a friend or two.

As far as the club bearing the cost: I'm simply stating that racers want the weekend they've always had no matter how much money the club uses.

People come to Barber to race not for roast beast and stella artrois. If the banquet was eliminated or moved off site many that I know wouldn't hold it against us.

[Cholewa]

People come to Barber to race not for roast beast and stella artrois. If the banquet was eliminated or moved off site many that I know wouldn't hold it against us.

Haven't we concluded that the banquet/social was mostly for the workers, since the racers don't care?

[kilgojr]

I honestly think our only hope is to get Barber/Zoom to give us a break on the rental. Did any ideas come from PBOC and their "charity" event? Any word on how much it cost them? Cholewa? Vince?

I have a feeler out to PBOC to see if I can get any more concrete info. In my talks with them during the weekend, they are losing money at Barber, but they are making it up at their Sebring events, etc which allows them to hold the event.

[bimmertech]

I think PBOC's main problem is they're at the end of the year. When people still have money and tires left they go to PBOC otherwise they write it off.

There are plenty of clubs making it at barber every year.
I think we have the added benefit of having labor day weekend where people have a travel day on Monday.

John Waight, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just under the presumption that a race isn't going to happen for the next couple of years and I'm trying to come up with a solution that allows us to hold our weekend until there is enough interest while serving the club in the process.

[pballance]

Too many races, front loaded race schedule, no runoffs hopeful will race Barber Labor Day and risk the car. I have raced and worked Barber and hope to continue.

Some comments as a racer: fun track, fair amount of track time, Barber management has not always been consumer friendly, lose the banquet and the high priced booze, keep entry fees as reasonable as possible, make the racer feel welcome.

Some comments as a worker: great worker track, some un-needed stations are being manned in spite of experienced officials advice, free lunches are good, t-shirts are nice but not necessary, reimbursement is nice, lose the dinner and I will still work the event, lose the free booze and I will bring my own and some to share with others,

Some thoughts a race official: ask Barber if they would be willing to share in the reward/risk of holding an SCCA event on Labor Day? All they can do is say no, but what if rental fee was a set figure per entry? Ie 100 entries and they get $120.00 /entry, 150 entries=$100/ entry. Less than 100 entries then the price drops to $75 entry. Then you build in your "early registration bonus" to cover the losses if you have less than 100 entries. Ie guarantee a fixed price rental that is below Barber's current rates. The carrot for Barber is their income for two days might climb to a level above their current rates w/o having to do anything but what they normally do. For example if we had 220 entries, their income would rise from $12k/day to $22k.

Just thinking out loud as I hope to see this race continue and hope that TVR can be a part of racing continuing at Barber

[rodhx]

Parts of this decision are easy. Lose Friday...if the track is interested in extended the weekend an extra day then it needs to be (largely) on their dime.

For at least the last two years the planning has been for the banquet to be "for the workers". As stated several times, we can't sustain it so lose it. Even if the club was flush with cash it is insane to spend $8-10k for the banquet. If something "must" be done give each worker a $20 gift card to a local restaurant and save what, $6-8k?

As a worker it is very nice to have lunch provided as it reduces the stuff I need to lug to the track. However, in the interest of actually holding an event I'm more than willing to either hit the concession stand or bring snacks to fend for myself. If lunch is not being provided make that very clearly known far in advance so workers can plan accordingly. If possible keep the higher reimbursement as used this year as incentives for workers to soften the blow.

Paul makes the same point I tried to get through to folks this past event. Some stations can be unmanned, or at least only manned by one worker. It's nice to have two at each station but not necessary. This year was the first time in three years all the stations have been manned and manned with two workers. Of course, in the name of making the appearance of having two workers per corner completely inexperienced folks were rushed out to corners to have some warm bodies.

Regarding number of workers, it appears that some areas are overstaffed thus reducing the number of workers available for other areas and also increasing costs. I suggest there be a limit set for each worker specialty. If someone wants to volunteer over and above the limit, they are just that...a volunteer. Otherwise redirect workers to needed areas.

An observation...~$400-450 for the weekend is being discussed here as if it is exorbitant, but that seems to be the prevailing rate for a weekend at Barber regardless of what organization you run with. I believe Road Atlanta events are similarly priced. I don't have the luxury of travelling to other tracks. If the club was somehow able to hold a TT/PDX at Barber at this rate I would be one of the first people to register.

[DelanieC]

My one and only track day at Barber (so far) was with Tracks Unlimited. It was one day at $275 with no additional instructor fee. Compared to Rezoom and Chin prices, this seemed like a good deal to me as a novice and great for getting new people involved. At the event I spoke with someone who seemed to be at least somewhat in charge and he said it was an experiment for them and they managed to break even. ... just a little added info for ya.

[Cholewa]

Regarding number of workers, it appears that some areas are overstaffed thus reducing the number of workers available for other areas and also increasing costs. I suggest there be a limit set for each worker specialty. If someone wants to volunteer over and above the limit, they are just that...a volunteer. Otherwise redirect workers to needed areas.

You should go up to T&S some time. Fewer this year than the year before, but good lord.

I agree with the unnecessary staffing of corners, thinning the pool of experienced workers just to make it look like it's fully staffed. There are enough stretches of track with a very clear sightline that some stations are just pointless to bother staffing.

Put people where we need them, then go out from there, and don't make a big deal about not having some random corner without a worker when there really isn't a necessity for there to be someone.


And just for the record, the entire cost of food for the weekend was right at 10k, that includes worker lunches fri/sat/sun and the banquet with no booze ( a savings of almost 1700). I don't know why we don't just order 50 pizzas and drive em in. Give it that down home racing feeling.

[JohnW8]

My one and only track day at Barber (so far) was with Tracks Unlimited. It was one day at $275 with no additional instructor fee. Compared to Rezoom and Chin prices, this seemed like a good deal to me as a novice and great for getting new people involved. At the event I spoke with someone who seemed to be at least somewhat in charge and he said it was an experiment for them and they managed to break even. ... just a little added info for ya.

Delanie, was that on a weekend or weekday?

[JohnW8]

[QUOTE=Cholewa;34113]
I agree with the unnecessary staffing of corners, thinning the pool of experienced workers just to make it look like it's fully staffed. There are enough stretches of track with a very clear sightline that some stations are just pointless to bother staffing.

Put people where we need them, then go out from there, and don't make a big deal about not having some random corner without a worker when there really isn't a necessity for there to be someone. [QUOTE=Cholewa;34113]

One of the necessities for their to be someone close is in case of fire. If you are a full straight away from a fire the driver could be cooked before you got there.

I don't know why we don't just order 50 pizzas and drive em in. Give it that down home racing feeling.

Because 5 Star owns the food rights at Barber.